plummer Terriers

[barks 0]

thats the dog i'm on about

what my dog rabbitchatcher? pinsley ace

[Guest Naughty]

welsby non working shit, bred for money, colour and a nice to look at dog

well spotted,GW, you only gota look in the countrymans to see how meny plummers you breed and the bullshit advice you give down the phone, wyrmeed, the purest lines but bred out of any old shit on every season then pass your shit on to other puppy farms without giveing the slightest fu*k about their welfair or the conditions they go to live in as someone elses broodbitches,hardly ever to see daylight agian,never have i seen such a bunch of hypercrits as those that farm plummers,how fu*king wonderfull the likes of you and all the other cronies are for the breed,how honest are you all about hidden faults,?not at all!! you lot just keep churning them out for cash,FACT!!.its no wonder the rest of the terrier world just laughs at the breed with you lot at the helm,iv seen some good plummers working to ground but iv also seen some that are slack on rats when they start comeing fast,some that will bush all day long and some that wont even enter long grass,

Edited July 15, 2009 by Naughty

[stormyboy 1,352]

Glenn-the plummer was in trouble from the moment the PTA closed book on mis marked , tris , reflex etc and colour + pattern became the main criteria for breeding. It was far too early for the limited gene pool to maintain healthy puppy production. This is the reason i declined to register my own dogs. (Which incidentally turned up on the register some time later mysteriously) . I must stress this is NOT a personal dig at anyone,but my opinion on the breed in general. the out cross was intended to be bred back to pure stock in the first place and is now producing some fine dogs. I cant comment on working ability as ive not seen them go but folks ive spoken to seem to be well satisfied. I believe there are some on your own register?

It really is time for all to stop the bitching and sort out policies that will carry the breed forward.

[AMADORE 5]

foxfan

 

I would like to tell the story,its perfectly true and involves some of the best terrier men this country has produced,as far as i know the strain has gone now,or its that diluted you couldnt say they had much influence on the dogs its still in.

 

I could tell you about some ins and outs of things but not be to specific,if you are interested?

 

 

Did'nt reply last night cos i went to bed (ran out of cider, lol)

Always interested to hear about terrier history, not interested if it involves slagging people though.

Not saying that you would do that pal.

 

Foxfan

after a lot of thought ive decided i cant risk offending my friends,afterall if they wanted publicity they could write a book[wish they would]when i speak to the man involved i will ask if he would be ok with a basic version of events being told.

For now all i can say is,the original dogs Plummer brought up north were a mix of unknown breeding,definatly Russell type and containing bull blood,this was mixed with lakeland blood obtained from Sid Wilkinson [rip].

Some very well known dogs were bred by mixing the 2 types together and ive never seen anything i would rather own.

As for the "unknown" bull blood that entered the later terriers,it wasnt unknown,and Plummer himself said it was added to improve the skin,the early dogs had skin and coat problems and even using lakeland blood didnt cure some of them of it,so what Plummer said did make sense.

Hope that doesn't sound like a cop out,atb steve.

The last bull outcross was introduced primarily to eradicate dimorphism that was rife-weak snipy headed bitches were commonly produced. No lakeland blood was used as far as i am aware. And yes plummer terriers will do the job. Mine worked with hounds pre ban.

 

Dimorphism..I would certianly debate the fact that the introduction of yet another breed into the Plummer terrier has or was done to "eradicate dimorphism". Which as now... back then is not a problem. If one presumes you are talking sexual dimorphism....distinct sexual differences.

 

But the facts may help.. DBp used Prices caped (unregistered due to dodgy pedigree)small chesty unspananble male called Mask (38% russell and 30% fell blood minimum) over the bull terrier "Hayley" so the offspring.. Seven, Eight,Nine etc etc are what 50% bull terrier 15% fell 19% russell and the rest well god knows.

 

The offspring were according to Joe Kyrolles (the owner of the bull terrier bitch used).... at DBPs funeral and I quote ....."not what Brian had hoped for " ....obviuosly not due to the mixed blood in the back ground.!!

 

So stage 2 get shut asap and ask new owners to mate back to registered purebreds asap.

 

Dimorphism was an excuse to "play god again"...there were and are males and females of equal size and shape ...I have two now and had 2 back then ...snipey heads are due to uneducated novice breeders breeding within small groups of friends. Not wanting to travel and use the correct most appropriate studs.

 

Pre 1994/ around the mid 's some of the females were massive and leggy and some males short and squat and weak. Due to the diverse genes within the blood. Its my opinion that the genes are still there for the purebred owners ..all they have to do is "get on" with fellow owners and keep the genes mixed up. As for Legion well i doubt linebreeding to "Hayley" will produce non dimophic stock. Peas in a pod are way off ..general similar appearnce yes genetic diversity has been mistaken for dimorphism...end

 

SIRE (RIGHT) DAUGHTER LEFT REASONABLY SIMILAR

 

 

 

ARE THESE TERRIERS SO DIFERENT?

 

 

11MONTH OLD BROTHER AND SISTER

FROM ABOVE MATING

 

2009 PUP

can you post peds of father & daughter. Prices mask i am told was sired by the legendary Rupert , a noted worker and VERY under used stud. Is this incorrect? His brother Rocky was an inferior stud genetically imo and VERY over used. Line breeding to him was responsible for the the weaker types, both dogs and bitches. You say that you have bred more plummers than anyone alive or dead- which dogs from mid 80s-94 were your base line?

 

Sire and dam of what?

Rupert underated stud depends on what your looking for he produced a higher % of cripples ( cripples cant work) compared to rocky and I only brought in a small amount of rupert blood in and based my stuff mainly around rocky and lucy of this line, because of the amount of cripples he produced. Work wise both as good as each other .

Genetically speaking of rupert and rocky ..depends again on what you are looking for dogs that can walk or dogs that crawl along...without teeth.

 

Perhaps now you understand why rupert was underused!!!!

 

Rupert produced so many faults in so few matings compared to Rocky.

Hence price wouldnt let him go.

However there sister Lucy I felt could have produced another line again but she was not used correctly, in my opinion.

 

My "home" line was started from firebird and rocky due to the % of good workers they produced for cp.

Edited July 16, 2009 by AMADORE

[AMADORE 5]

Glenn-the plummer was in trouble from the moment the PTA closed book on mis marked , tris , reflex etc and colour + pattern became the main criteria for breeding. It was far too early for the limited gene pool to maintain healthy puppy production. This is the reason i declined to register my own dogs. (Which incidentally turned up on the register some time later mysteriously) . I must stress this is NOT a personal dig at anyone,but my opinion on the breed in general. the out cross was intended to be bred back to pure stock in the first place and is now producing some fine dogs. I cant comment on working ability as ive not seen them go but folks ive spoken to seem to be well satisfied. I believe there are some on your own register?

It really is time for all to stop the bitching and sort out policies that will carry the breed forward.

 

"In trouble"..what makes you say that the Plummer is in trouble?

"Limited genepool"... back then!!!!!! your joking surely not ..I could pick any plummer terrier on my register in 1994 at random and bet that it has a high % either fell blood Russell blood and fox terrier blood. How can that be limited.

 

Rocky Rupert Lucy a main players..out of 8 great grandparents 3 were purebred Russell 1 a fell terrier 1 half Russell 1 half fell..... not really limited genepool there so all there offspring still carry loads of different genes never mind the linebreeding back to these dogs that occurred.

 

The second stud line at the time kotian/salem stuff eg pazaz phobos etc had were minimum 12% fox terrier and 33% Russell.

 

The Third stud line san 6% beagle !! 28% Russell..again hadley limited genes

 

Heterozygosity

 

Because of heterozygosity the above studs being used of each others offspring brought about massive variants so the genepool was closed to try and gain some "type" . The problem back then was the diversity was such that some resembled complete other breeds...we closed the pool to stop the "variants"..and to limit the amount of breeding "away" from the standard.

 

It was because of the mixed gentic make up that the breed had so many variants that prompted the closure to mismarked terriers because the genepool was throwing up so many variants is precisely the opposite to having a limited genepool.

 

 

As far as the outcross programme is concerned yes there are some nice types bound to be when they are bred back to purebreds. This i have said for sometime but I said the outcross was not done to stop dimorphism...(?)

 

Yes the EPTR has a few outcrosses but has restricted the % of blood to now 4% and nobody has yet asked me for a outcross stud ....why is that? The reason why the % has been restricted is simply to prevent linbreeding to an unknown fault carrying animal.

 

My own lines have no outcross blood I have managed to maintain type and working ability without moving the goal posts.

 

As far as my genepol goes lets take a random puppy say the one pictured here above is 8.3% inbred. The nearest foreign blood is a Russell called pip on the 8th generation

 

My future stud pictured above with his sibling is also 8.2% inbred

 

Rocky was 15.5% inbred!!

San was 7.3%

Kotian stuff.eg pazzaz 11.8%

 

THE GENPOOL IS NOT LIMITED IT IS STILL VIABLE AS LONG AS OWNERS COMINUICATE .

[AMADORE 5]

welsby non working shit, bred for money, colour and a nice to look at dog

well spotted,GW, you only gota look in the countrymans to see how meny plummers you breed and the bullshit advice you give down the phone, wyrmeed, the purest lines but bred out of any old shit on every season then pass your shit on to other puppy farms without giveing the slightest fu*k about their welfair or the conditions they go to live in as someone elses broodbitches,hardly ever to see daylight agian,never have i seen such a bunch of hypercrits as those that farm plummers,how fu*king wonderfull the likes of you and all the other cronies are for the breed,how honest are you all about hidden faults,?not at all!! you lot just keep churning them out for cash,FACT!!.its no wonder the rest of the terrier world just laughs at the breed with you lot at the helm,iv seen some good plummers working to ground but iv also seen some that are slack on rats when they start comeing fast,some that will bush all day long and some that wont even enter long grass,

 

Jamie LOL.

 

naughty

"look in the countrymans to see how meny plummers you breed " didnt know they kept records seems your mistaken again lol

"any old shit"..disaggree my terriers are quite nice i think!

"every season". impossable as i have 2 litters a year max three

"churning them out for cash"..yes for cash not cheques lol....

 

Grow up ...end

Edited July 16, 2009 by AMADORE

[dumbo 0]

THE GENPOOL IS NOT LIMITED IT IS STILL VIABLE AS LONG AS OWNERS COMINUICATE .

 

I agree. However, the communicating bit is proving to be a bit of a problem and for me is the plummer terriers main downfall. The people involved are only too happy to keep using the dogs from within their circles. As you said yourself it is a problem when people are unable to use the correct stud dog.. there are various reasons for this ranging from those who will not travel. Those that cannot bring themselves to use some other animal purely cos it was bred by the wrong person and those who just have to use there own dog as stud cos he is their pride and joy.. Then you have the problem that the registers cause. I have lost count of the amount of times people wont use a certain dog just because he is not say pta/eptr reg - basically the dog not being reged with their chosen organisation.

 

Take the dog bred by you (Charlie) for example. I once had a conversation with you about how this dog needed to be used. It was suggested that if I was to breed from an unnamed bitch that this would be the dog to use. Now I didn't have a problem with this as I too am a firm believer in using the best dog possible. For various reasons I had no involvement with this proposed mating and then I found out that a completely different dog was used that you agreed with me wasn't the right dog. A dog from lines that are common and certainly not the best example from those lines in regards to disposition, work or conformation. Now don't get me wrong - each to their own and who is to say how you can control what people want to do with their own dogs. Unless the register takes complete control you will always here of situation like the above and as we know complete control is just not the way to go. It is a shame cos now you are hearing that people wish they had known about dogs such as Charlie. My answer to this is they did - he has been on a forum and on a stud page for years, now along with the majority of other dead dogs still on the stud page. My betting is that the reasons are something along the lines of the dog was bred by somebody they do not like, or, he was 15" Too much white etc etc. Very short sited imo.

 

Short sited sums it all up really. Until people can loose all agendas and come to a table and talk the breed will stand still or maybe even regress. There are signs(faults) of this regression now and as you outlined it is not due to a limited gene pool but the limited use of the genes available through human nature and that nature being a little dumb and destructive. Until we are able to sort through our emotions I am afraid that we will always have to put up with these kinds of conversations on open forums with the odd intellectual retard posting the nonsensical - same old.

Edited July 16, 2009 by dumbo

[sharp_shooter_sam 0]

i wont say so mate i dont know anyone who dose and i have never heard anyone who has dug to one.

My mates plummer was out digging every other day for nearly 6 years before the ban, and that dog never let him down.

He is after another one soon I think

Regards,

Sam

Edited July 16, 2009 by sharp_shooter_sam

[AMADORE 5]

Quote "The last bull outcross was introduced primarily to eradicate dimorphism that was rife-weak snipy headed bitches "

....what was the result we have seen loads of reasonable males ...which plummers have plenty of anyway...but what about the bitches from the outcross lot.

 

Pinsley ace sisters etc...have we any photos to see if the outcross blood has improved them to warrant and justify the outcrossing.

 

ps. stormyboy what dogs did you decline to register?

Edited July 16, 2009 by AMADORE

[Big bald beautiful 1,231]

Note ****

 

HUNTING LIFE...

 

hunting , not breeding bull shit

[Cleanspade 3,324]

i wont say so mate i dont know anyone who dose and i have never heard anyone who has dug to one.

my mates plumber was out digging every other day for nearly 6 year before the ban and that dog never let him down.

his is after another one soon.

 

is this dog still about sharp shooter. ?

[AMADORE 5]

Note ****

 

HUNTING LIFE...

 

hunting , not breeding bull shit

 

"not breeding bull shit".. :sick:

[stormyboy 1,352]

Quote "The last bull outcross was introduced primarily to eradicate dimorphism that was rife-weak snipy headed bitches "

....what was the result we have seen loads of reasonable males ...which plummers have plenty of anyway...but what about the bitches from the outcross lot.

 

Pinsley ace sisters etc...have we any photos to see if the outcross blood has improved them to warrant and justify the outcrossing.

 

ps. stormyboy what dogs did you decline to register?

there are some very tidy looking bitches from the o.c. out there,have an UNBIASED LOOK.

 

My dogs were Rupert bred plus a little Lucy , San and pip. according to your percentages should not be too good? very homozygous strangely!

percentages are all very well but as im sure you know, when breeding animals of any sort, they dont always follow the rules.

No more now thanks-the thread is heading for the usual slanging match that these things end up as.

[Single Handed. . 1]

Come on, does anyone HONESTLY use them for regular digging ?

 

For F*CKS Sake!!! Foxfan, only asked is there any people on here that dig to PLUMMERS REGULARY???? Just answer the lad an put some pictures up. Some right D*KS ON HERE!!!! %%%%%%%%% PERCENTAGE MAD. . . :sick: :sick:

[Cleanspade 3,324]

a sister to barks dog Pinsley Ace. Pinsley Amber. hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

she is just below the 12 inch. done very little as yet