Question for all of the....

[Foxgun Tom 75]

Were' a lot closer than you think!! eg: My Mother was a Boyd, lowland Clan from Kilmarnock (Ayrshire)

: Father Was a Cameron, Highland Clan

Wife is Gunn Clan Island Clan

 

The clan system was prevelant throughout Scotland, Highlands and Islands and lowlands not just in the north!!

 

Tom

 

  droid said:

This all assumes that all Scots are a homogeneous entity.

 

They aren't.

The Lowland Scots are different from the Highland Scots, and both are different from those that come from the north east of Scotland who are more Scandinavian in origin and culture.

 

Not as mongrel as the English though, I'll grant that.

Edited March 17, 2009 by Foxgun Tom

[Guest ESS]

  Foxgun Tom said:

Were' a lot closer thant you think!! eg: My Mother was a Boyd, lowland Clan from Kilmarnock (Ayrshire)

: Father Was a Cameron, Highland Clan

Wife is Gunn Clan Island Clan

 

Tom

 

  droid said:

This all assumes that all Scots are a homogeneous entity.

 

They aren't.

The Lowland Scots are different from the Highland Scots, and both are different from those that come from the north east of Scotland who are more Scandinavian in origin and culture.

 

Not as mongrel as the English though, I'll grant that.

 

 

And it assumes that they all lived together peacefully with never a bit of blood shed....till us English stuck our oar in

Edited March 17, 2009 by ESS

[Foxgun Tom 75]

It was'nt the English who were the major problem after the Scottish wars of independance it was succesive British governments, a subtle difference!! The 1715 and 45 rebellions were'nt an England / Scotland issue

 

Tom

Edited March 17, 2009 by Foxgun Tom

[droid 11]

  Foxgun Tom said:

Were' a lot closer than you think!! eg: My Mother was a Boyd, lowland Clan from Kilmarnock (Ayrshire)

: Father Was a Cameron, Highland Clan

Wife is Gunn Clan Island Clan

 

The clan system was prevelant throughout Scotland, Highlands and Islands and lowlands not just in the north!!

 

Tom

 

  droid said:

This all assumes that all Scots are a homogeneous entity.

 

They aren't.

The Lowland Scots are different from the Highland Scots, and both are different from those that come from the north east of Scotland who are more Scandinavian in origin and culture.

 

Not as mongrel as the English though, I'll grant that.

 

I'm going back a bit further than that, Tom.

 

Just how far back does the Clan system go?

[gonetoearth 5,144]

  Foxgun Tom said:

It was'nt the English who were the major problem after the Scottish wars of independance it was succesive British governments, a subtle difference!! The 1715 and 45 rebellions were'nt an England / Scotland issue

 

Tom

when Scotland has its referendum and the vast majority vote to stay in the union will

your lot stop wingeing,mind you the oil has nearly run out and there not much else up there,

mr salmon will save you all and i am sure there will be a european grant to rebuild hadrians wall , FREEEEEEDOM

,

[Guest ESS]

  Foxgun Tom said:

It was'nt the English who were the major problem after the Scottish wars of independance it was succesive British governments, a subtle difference!! The 1715 and 45 rebellions were'nt an England / Scotland issue

 

Tom

 

Warfare among the clans was commonplace in the 16th and 17th centuries ..I was simply trying to imply that 300 years has past, you now have your own Parliament your own SMP your right to control your budgets ,legistate your own laws, protecting and promoting your own heritage,with the advantage of financial support from a benevolent and benigne neighbour..

[Foxgun Tom 75]

The Clan system is actuallyolder than Scotland itself

 

Scottish Clan System

ONE of the most important factors in Scotland's development as a nation over the last 1000 years has been the existence of the clan system.

 

The clans are even older than Scotland itself, and many people - especially expatriates living abroad - regard them as a vital part of the country's heritage.

 

This age-old system of family groupings has given many Scots their surnames, provided a great amount of family pride, and produced a fierce sense of community which still exists to this day.

 

Despite the fact it has existed for 1000 years, there is much that we don't know about the clan system - quite how it started, for instance, or what the early structures were.

 

However, historians reckon that the first clans probably emerged in the 11th century. Alan McInnes, of the history department at Aberdeen University, explains: "They began at much the same time as Scotland began to be unified. There was a lot of instability at that time, and they would have begun with powerful lords offering protection to a local community and other groups."

 

Clans dominated the highlands of Scotland as well as other areas which at the time were remote from the centres of Scottish life and government - Galloway and the Borders, for example.

 

They were forged out of different tribes based on family ties. The word clan comes from the gaelic "clann", which means children or descendants. There would always be a clan chief, who took on the responsibility of looking after the people in his area.

 

It is almost certainly not the case that - as popularly believed - everyone in a clan belonged to the same family. The chief and his children would be the most important figures, but many other clansmen were not blood relations. They would simply be people who lived locally and looked to him for protection.

 

Nevertheless, the clan ties and loyalty were extremely strong - in the case of the Lordship of the isles for instance, the Clan Donald effectively established its own kingdom, with only tenuous ties to the rest of Scotland.

 

Most Highlanders would have felt allegiance to their clan first and their country second. They believed in it so much that they were prepared to die for it - which is just as well, because that's often exactly what happened.

 

The whole history of the clan system is characterised by feuds, and the chief had to be able to call on his people to serve in his army when he needed them.

 

Jean Munro explains: "As the clans got bigger, they needed more land to make themselves self-sufficient. The problem was that in the Highlands, much of the land was pretty barren and you couldn't do a lot with it. A lot of the battles between the clans would be over control of the land which could be used."

 

Clans weren't particularly sophisticated societies, but they worked well enough. The chief was the undisputed ruler, and all his people would have genuine affection for him and trust him implictly.

 

His sons would probably be appointed cadets - a kind of officer class who would provide a contact with the ordinary people and help to run the territory.

 

The ordinary people within the clan would be tenants on the chief's land - he was usually, though not always, the landowner - and he would look after them, arbitrating in their disputes and ensuring they had enough to eat.

 

In return, they would probably take a turn working on his own land, would agree to serve in his army whenever necessary, and would bring him gifts of food and provisions, which would probably be put into store and redistributed to the needy in times of hardship.

 

The big difference between the clans and the feudal society which existed in most of lowland Scotland was that the latter was based entirely on a heirarchy built around the ownership of land. The clan system was very different because it was built around relationships.

 

Yet another myth which survives about clans is that they were purely a Celtic invention. They weren't. The Frasers for instance, originally came from France, and they settled in the Borders before moving on to Aberdeenshire.

 

The MacLeods were originally of Viking blood, while the Campbells and the Galbraiths were descended from the ancient Britons who lived in the old kingdom of Strathclyde. The Camerons were Anglo-Normans, while the McLeans came from Moray.

 

As time went on - and particularly after the ending of the Lordship of the Isles in 1493 - some clans became far more powerful and assertive than others. The revoking of the Lordship left a power vacuum, for instance, which was quickly filled by the Argyll-based Campbells.

 

Other powerful clans included the Gordons and Mackenzies, who dominated large parts of Scotland and were powerful enough to have a major influence not just in their own areas, but over the whole of the country.

 

Less powerful clans included the Macphersons, Gunns and Frasers, but all shared the same powerful bonds of kinship and allegiance to their chief. Another authority on the subject, David Sellar of the Faculty of Law at Edinburgh University, says: "In some cases, the clans were big enough to effectively be a political unit on their own, while others were just small kin groups.

 

"The trouble is that there are a lot of thing we just don't know. A lot of records haven't survived and when you piece the jigsaw together, you find that half the bits are missing."

 

Successive kings of Scots made clever use of the clan system by winning the allegiance of the chiefs and then calling on them to bring their men into their battles.

 

Not all of them, however, were loyal to the Scottish crown. The Clan Sween, for instance, chose to back the English during the Scottish wars of independence, even lending them a fleet of galleys to fight with. The McSweens later went to Ireland, where they made a name for themselves as mercenaries and became powerful again.

 

Many people believe that the power of the clans ended with Bonnie Prince Charlie's defeat at Culloden in 1746, since most of them supported the Jacobite cause and were routed in the oppression that followed.

 

However, Jean Munro says that their decline had started long before this. "When James VI took the throne, he summoned the clan chiefs to Edinburgh so he could keep an eye on them. They were required to attend the court every year.

 

"When they went there, they led a very different life - they started to have to use money, for instance, which they'd never needed before. The result was that they started to lose touch with their own people and the whole structure began to fall to pieces."

 

Even today, many Scots still feel an affinity to the clan to which they belong, although very few of them bother to join clan societies or take part in gatherings.

 

Ironically, it is only now, after a thousand years of history, that Scotland's clan chiefs will finally lose all of their political influence.

 

Some of them, such as the head of the Campbell clan, the Duke of Argyll, retain seats in the House of Lords to this day. However, they will lose their right to sit in the Upper House in the near future when the government finally brings hereditary peerages to an end.

 

When this happens, it will finally mark the end of an era - though it is highly unlikely that many modern days Scots will be found complaining about it.

[droid 11]

The time I'm thinking of was far longer ago than 1000 years ago.

 

Seems to me that the Clan system was simply the formalisation of the sort of social system that was rather prevalent in prehistory. That of mutually supportive extended families. Ie a 'tribal' system.

 

Only difference between Scotland and the rest of the British Isles seems to be that the Scots held onto it rather longer.

[NID 0]

  gonetoearth said:

  Foxgun Tom said:

It was'nt the English who were the major problem after the Scottish wars of independance it was succesive British governments, a subtle difference!! The 1715 and 45 rebellions were'nt an England / Scotland issue

 

Tom

when Scotland has its referendum and the vast majority vote to stay in the union will

your lot stop wingeing,mind you the oil has nearly run out and there not much else up there,

mr salmon will save you all and i am sure there will be a european grant to rebuild hadrians wall , FREEEEEEDOM

,

Your quite right GtoE not much else up here except the best Hunting,Shooting and fishing in the uk, IMO,atb NID.

PS.Forgot about the scenery.

[Guest WILF]

Ah, the historical Scottish problem, lets take a while to ponder the twists and turns of history, the rights and wrongs....................naahhh, feck em....we won!!

[gonetoearth 5,144]

  NID said:

  gonetoearth said:

  Foxgun Tom said:

It was'nt the English who were the major problem after the Scottish wars of independance it was succesive British governments, a subtle difference!! The 1715 and 45 rebellions were'nt an England / Scotland issue

 

Tom

when Scotland has its referendum and the vast majority vote to stay in the union will

your lot stop wingeing,mind you the oil has nearly run out and there not much else up there,

mr salmon will save you all and i am sure there will be a european grant to rebuild hadrians wall , FREEEEEEDOM

,

Your quite right GtoE not much else up here except the best Hunting,Shooting and fishing in the uk, IMO,atb NID.

PS.Forgot about the scenery.

NID THERE IS NO BIGGER FAN OF SCOTLAND , THAN ME I WAS JUST HAVING THE CRAIC , I SAT IN THE CROWS NEST OF A TALL SHIP AS WE PAST THREW THE CALADONION CANAL THE SCENERY WAS TREMENDOUS, AS WAS THE JOURNEY UP THE WEST COAST PASSING THREW THE MULL AND ON UP THREW THE SEA LOCHS , WE ARE BLESSED IN THESE ISLES ENGLAND SCOTLAND, WALES AND IRELAND WITH SOME OF THE FINEST COUNTRY SIDE FROM MOUNTAINS TO LAKES , TO LOW LANDS , VALLEYS, ITS GOVERNMENTS THAT DIVIDE US THE PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY THE SAME

[Foxgun Tom 75]

 

Tom

 

  WILF said:

Ah, the historical Scottish problem, lets take a while to ponder the twists and turns of history, the rights and wrongs....................naahhh, feck em....we won!!

[NID 0]

  gonetoearth said:

  NID said:

  gonetoearth said:

  Foxgun Tom said:

It was'nt the English who were the major problem after the Scottish wars of independance it was succesive British governments, a subtle difference!! The 1715 and 45 rebellions were'nt an England / Scotland issue

 

Tom

when Scotland has its referendum and the vast majority vote to stay in the union will

your lot stop wingeing,mind you the oil has nearly run out and there not much else up there,

mr salmon will save you all and i am sure there will be a european grant to rebuild hadrians wall , FREEEEEEDOM

,

Your quite right GtoE not much else up here except the best Hunting,Shooting and fishing in the uk, IMO,atb NID.

PS.Forgot about the scenery.

NID THERE IS NO BIGGER FAN OF SCOTLAND , THAN ME I WAS JUST HAVING THE CRAIC , I SAT IN THE CROWS NEST OF A TALL SHIP AS WE PAST THREW THE CALADONION CANAL THE SCENERY WAS TREMENDOUS, AS WAS THE JOURNEY UP THE WEST COAST PASSING THREW THE MULL AND ON UP THREW THE SEA LOCHS , WE ARE BLESSED IN THESE ISLES ENGLAND SCOTLAND, WALES AND IRELAND WITH SOME OF THE FINEST COUNTRY SIDE FROM MOUNTAINS TO LAKES , TO LOW LANDS , VALLEYS, ITS GOVERNMENTS THAT DIVIDE US THE PEOPLE ARE GENERALLY THE SAME

True GtoE,We have a lot to be thankful for,atb NID.

[undisputed 1,664]

  droid said:

This all assumes that all Scots are a homogeneous entity.

 

They aren't.

The Lowland Scots are different from the Highland Scots, and both are different from those that come from the north east of Scotland who are more Scandinavian in origin and culture.

 

Not as mongrel as the English though, I'll grant that.

 

You can get 3/4 scot x's and half english x's from Hancock....apparently

[Swampy 147]

  undisputed said:

  droid said:

This all assumes that all Scots are a homogeneous entity.

 

They aren't.

The Lowland Scots are different from the Highland Scots, and both are different from those that come from the north east of Scotland who are more Scandinavian in origin and culture.

 

Not as mongrel as the English though, I'll grant that.

 

You can get 3/4 scot x's and half english x's from Hancock....apparently

Fox gun Tom is going to be on your case.........I don't fancy being in your boots

 

 

Swampy

 

Ninging in trepidation

 

 

Just read previous threads...evidently he already has sorry

Edited March 18, 2009 by Swampy