gameness in terriers

[kirstysdad 827]

all earth dogs should be game enough with out introducing bull to them but what some people call game others would call stupid theres a very fine line between gameness and stupitity

[hendo 1]

I.M.O. A good honest earthdog is as game as any other breed out there & does not need the inclusion of any other breed to make him more so, he enters an alien enviroment, cramped of space, lacking in air and in total darkness he locates his quarry, bottles him up and stays with him for as long as required whilst taking (on occasion) severe punishment. If he was losing gameness, i do'nt think it was down to the lack of bull blood, just down to people breeding off of inferior animals/untested stock. work em hard and breed from the best. J.M.O...

Yokel

i agree worker to worker and there is no need to add anything

 

 

Both posts are spot on...agree 100%

[lataza2001 0]

Here is some old dogs with bullblood in the Jack Russell lines..Kenterfox Flirt and Beacon Sam...Kenterfox Hassell is out of Flirt. I don't know that we would introduce it today nor would want to because of the wide fronts and the chest. My guess is it was introduced for the bigger head. With the wider chest and fronts I don't think these dogs wouldn't proform well in the ground. You see how important it is to profile pedigrees so you know in any given breeding what you can expect.

I often wonder whether Beacon Sam really did have bull blood in him becasue even when a dog is heavily linebred Sam with Sam as the sire and Sam more than once in the dam's pedigree the bull type head is not exhibited in the offspring.

 

Hassle was by Flint of course and it takes about three generations to hide real specifics but of course they always come out later. For example Meg Miranda (old JRTCA) had a pup all brown from Tailors' line. It is an interesting case having "not breed specific" pups after some generations.

Eddie Chapman wrote it in his book "The Real Jack Russell terrier" that he would not be surprised to see some black and tan "JRT" pups after that amount of Lakeland terrier blood introduced to the breed.

 

Take any smooth with a big jaw and great width of backskull and they have a bull look to them. Put hair on the face and you lose the bull look altogether. I'm not saying there is or isn't bull blood behind Sam. However, if you look at Kelly of the Beacon as well as Jack it's difficult to find any bull look to either of them. Maybe there is and maybe there isn't. I guess we'll never really know will we.

 

I don't like bull blood in working terriers i see no need for it, it was added for the badger lads mostly, those like Heinemann who wanted hard dogs for working badgers with.

However one cannot get away from whats happened in the past, what was done then has begot what we love today, all we can do is improve & work with what we have.

[lataza2001 0]

Bull Terrier blood was used by Arthur Heinneman to breed a harder kill dog with a bigger jaw and more aggression to work BADGER. Remember that the Parson and the Jack Russell is supposed to be a fox working dog and, consequently, a soft baying dog. Ackerman's history of the Wire and Smooth Fox Terrier tells us that Bull blood was also used in the 1800s in those SHOW kennels who wanted a smooth terrier. Hence the Smooth Fox Terrier came down from from those kennels into the show ring.

 

So both Bull and Fell blood were used to create show dogs and hunting dogs. All of that is history and went into what we call today the modern day Parson Russell and the JRTCA Parson Jack Russell. However, the time for crossbreeding is, IMO, long past. We just need to know what is behind these terriers, how close and how much of it there is because it does influence the style of terrier you will breed. Then you get to make the choice as to whether you want a white Fell type or a traditional Russell.

 

It is safe to assume those in Heinneman's badger digging club also used bull blood to impart the more aggressive "stay in the ground at all cost, even if it means losing your life" nature into their badger hunting dogs. I doubt Heinneman cared about coat type. It you will read Heinneman's breed standard you will find the references to bull blood including the allowance of grey as an acceptable color. There are other descriptions that let you know that bull blood was used. As for individual dog's names, you aren't going to find that. Just as you look at a pedigree and see names on the page, you don't know what color or breed those names represent in most cases. Remember than Heinneman lived a century ago whereas the Kenterfox terriers are a more recent (1980s) addition to the gene pool.

A Parson or Jack Russell should NEVER kill the fox in the ground. They were bred to be baying dogs ONLY. John Russell would never tolerate a terrier that laid a tooth on a fox.

 

You need to buy a copy of Ackerman's The Complete Fox Terrier, the Wire and the Smooth and The Memoirs of the Rev John Russell. There are also dozens of other books written by those who worked, owned and showed terriers that you should add to your library if you are interested in the history of the Parson and how it parallels other working breeds.

 

You will find that the type of terrier that Arthur Heinneman bred and worked was NOT the type nor did it have the same working style as the terrier that the Rev John Russell bred and worked. There is also no documentation that Heinneman's terriers were bred from Rev. Russell's terriers. Heinneman capitalized on John Russell's name but did not concentrate on hunting fox nor was he interested in a soft baying terrier. He wanted a bigger, heavier terrier that was more aggressive and with a bigger head and jaw, which is why I have NEVER understood why the Parson Club that was initially formed in England used Heinneman as their reference or Heinneman's type of terrier. I can only assume part of it was because those who founded the club didn't work their terriers, and so just didn't understand the difference.

 

What we are left with today is a wonderful terrier for sure but certainly is a result of infusing Fell and Bull blood into the breed. Whether the "foreign blood" makes for a better working terrier is something I don't buy since those terriers without the Fell or Bull blood such as Eddie Chapman's dogs are brilliant workers. IF a terrierman needed a hard kill dog for those rocky areas of the UK where digging is not possible then it makes perfect sense to breed a dog that will dispatch his quarry in the rocks if can't drive the fox out. If a terrierman's primary quarry was badger it makes sense to me to breed a smart, softer terrier with plenty of grit to stick but lots of smarts because a badger can turn head to tail on a terrier and rip his throat right out.

 

If you want to see a truly aggressive terrier you need to hunt with the German Jagdterrier. They don't know what quit means and they have quite different temperaments from a Parson or a Jack Russell.

[mouse 282]

Bull Terrier blood was used by Arthur Heinneman to breed a harder kill dog with a bigger jaw and more aggression to work BADGER. Remember that the Parson and the Jack Russell is supposed to be a fox working dog and, consequently, a soft baying dog. Ackerman's history of the Wire and Smooth Fox Terrier tells us that Bull blood was also used in the 1800s in those SHOW kennels who wanted a smooth terrier. Hence the Smooth Fox Terrier came down from from those kennels into the show ring.

 

So both Bull and Fell blood were used to create show dogs and hunting dogs. All of that is history and went into what we call today the modern day Parson Russell and the JRTCA Parson Jack Russell. However, the time for crossbreeding is, IMO, long past. We just need to know what is behind these terriers, how close and how much of it there is because it does influence the style of terrier you will breed. Then you get to make the choice as to whether you want a white Fell type or a traditional Russell.

 

It is safe to assume those in Heinneman's badger digging club also used bull blood to impart the more aggressive "stay in the ground at all cost, even if it means losing your life" nature into their badger hunting dogs. I doubt Heinneman cared about coat type. It you will read Heinneman's breed standard you will find the references to bull blood including the allowance of grey as an acceptable color. There are other descriptions that let you know that bull blood was used. As for individual dog's names, you aren't going to find that. Just as you look at a pedigree and see names on the page, you don't know what color or breed those names represent in most cases. Remember than Heinneman lived a century ago whereas the Kenterfox terriers are a more recent (1980s) addition to the gene pool.

A Parson or Jack Russell should NEVER kill the fox in the ground. They were bred to be baying dogs ONLY. John Russell would never tolerate a terrier that laid a tooth on a fox.

 

You need to buy a copy of Ackerman's The Complete Fox Terrier, the Wire and the Smooth and The Memoirs of the Rev John Russell. There are also dozens of other books written by those who worked, owned and showed terriers that you should add to your library if you are interested in the history of the Parson and how it parallels other working breeds.

 

You will find that the type of terrier that Arthur Heinneman bred and worked was NOT the type nor did it have the same working style as the terrier that the Rev John Russell bred and worked. There is also no documentation that Heinneman's terriers were bred from Rev. Russell's terriers. Heinneman capitalized on John Russell's name but did not concentrate on hunting fox nor was he interested in a soft baying terrier. He wanted a bigger, heavier terrier that was more aggressive and with a bigger head and jaw, which is why I have NEVER understood why the Parson Club that was initially formed in England used Heinneman as their reference or Heinneman's type of terrier. I can only assume part of it was because those who founded the club didn't work their terriers, and so just didn't understand the difference.

 

What we are left with today is a wonderful terrier for sure but certainly is a result of infusing Fell and Bull blood into the breed. Whether the "foreign blood" makes for a better working terrier is something I don't buy since those terriers without the Fell or Bull blood such as Eddie Chapman's dogs are brilliant workers. IF a terrierman needed a hard kill dog for those rocky areas of the UK where digging is not possible then it makes perfect sense to breed a dog that will dispatch his quarry in the rocks if can't drive the fox out. If a terrierman's primary quarry was badger it makes sense to me to breed a smart, softer terrier with plenty of grit to stick but lots of smarts because a badger can turn head to tail on a terrier and rip his throat right out.

 

If you want to see a truly aggressive terrier you need to hunt with the German Jagdterrier. They don't know what quit means and they have quite different temperaments from a Parson or a Jack Russell.

good post mate but if the jagd terrier is so good why are the lads over here not workuing them every day.

[lataza2001 0]

Mouse that is the right question. I guess we have to ask ourselves what kind of Terrrier will want to use and for what quarry? If it is a hard terrier then look into the jagd. I guess it comes to personal choices.

[clinker 0]

I agree but too much bull gives you a good dog but its no good when hes in the pen recuperating all the time.

true

[mouse 282]

Mouse that is the right question. I guess we have to ask ourselves what kind of Terrrier will want to use and for what quarry? If it is a hard terrier then look into the jagd. I guess it comes to personal choices.

im sure we have got the same terriers for the same job,all down to choice.good digging mate.cheers mouse.

[hue jeers 6]

Back to the original question,

 

I'm not sure if the Bull blood was introduced into working terriers for anything other than to make them stronger. With this strength also comes a certain single minded drive though, which can be beneficial.

 

With that I mean to put more bone and head size onto a terrier with a stronger jaw, problem is with that stronger jaw and bigger head comes a deeper chest generally, so there has to be a question over the use of Bull blood for an 'earth dog' working Fox.

 

Whether the addition of Bull blood will make any other terrier more 'game' is doubtful in my opinion, the gameness should already be there otherwise adding more size will just make a useless 'un-game' animal bigger.

 

On the question of Gameness, do we mean up for it game and ready for anything or game as in hard, willing to take un neccesary punishment and getting a good kicking while at it ?

 

As far as I am concerned, a game terrier is different to a hard terrier.

[mouse 282]

a game terrier stays untill the job is done and can be lfted to work the next day.that is my sort of terrier.

[Little Butch 16]

Gameness to me means that a Dog's willing to carry on going to the end even when In pain..

 

'Drive starts a task, Gameness finishes It'

 

Butch

[terrier.2 123]

some real good replies..imo gameness =when all the odds are stacked against the dog he will still go in and do his job,i think gameness is that simple,nothing to do with how hard etc..

[Bevwallis 7]

some real good replies..imo gameness =when all the odds are stacked against the dog he will still go in and do his job,i think gameness is that simple,nothing to do with how hard etc..

 

 

I agree with this an other things written above.

 

I have more experience with various bull terriers than other terrier breeds but have seen aggression confused with gameness- more often than not those dogs are not truely game but defensive

 

I do admire some of the bull terriers but often once switched on you get a senseless destruction- OK if your dog is facing certain quarry but problematic mostly and not very useful for me and so in future i shall not add any further terriers to my kennels that include bull blood if they are required to work

[lataza2001 0]

Gameness is the drive they have. It's nice to know others interpretation of this. Here is some pictures of the bull terriers and the mini bull terriers in the 1930's.

 

 

. It interesting what happens over the years and to see what happens when the blood was added for what ever reasons, and the different charistics that are added to any of the working terriers.

[foxfan 479]

pre locator days too much bull blood would make a dog useless for ground work as the dog would be mute. terriers have always had the tenacity and determination to stay with their quarry for as long as it takes. bull blood just made them keener to get to grips and absorb punishment.