SHOW US YOUR PATTERDALES

[dillydog 8,463]

I only know one line of dogs King, if I was new to them I wouldn't have a clue mate. 

[Apache... 2,588]

Who says the dogs sent to America Glyn would not work to a higher standard in Europe if they are not tested there?

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

26 minutes ago, king said:

so some new blood is needed.so lads say breed tight.father daughter breeding.mother son.so when do you know when is the right time to inject some new blood.into the line.

to add new vigour etc.and when do you know the line is going stale so to speak.

watching the dogs perform etc.but if you are new to that line of dogs how do you work out when the line needs a bit of new blood. 

You should never wait until the line shows signs of being too close as you are already on the downward slope and don’t use an out cross that is too far from your own type or you may undo all you have strived for .

My own breeding experience included a mate who started with similar breeding to my own ,even used my first stud dog but bred to the Nuttal side rather than the Wheeler that I preferred .

He maintained the size using a son of my Razor,a bull headed Nuttal type dog to all intents and purposes called Sand .Subsequent breedings were up and down within his type ,not my style but he produced workers .His type however were ideal outcrosses to my own and I used 3 of his dogs within 30 odd years .

We agreed not to use mine over his as it would of been counterproductive .He used another lads blacks as a further outcross over his bitches .

The first litter I had to this outcross were all dogs ,not what I wanted and I gave the whole lot away and so bred another bitch almost on the bounce to the same dog ,which produced 2 bitches 2 dogs of which I kept the bitches .They were like peas in a pod and went on to work well both living and working to a good age and producing 15 pups between them .Put to my then Fly dog ,the bitches were a bit more balanced than he was and produced steady workers .Subsequent matings to the Wheeler style studs I bred produced strong bold types that had a bit of brain to go with it ,something I’d not encountered .

[Glyn..... 5,208]

32 minutes ago, Apache... said:

Who says the dogs sent to America Glyn would not work to a higher standard in Europe if they are not tested there?

i know that terriers bred the same way at the same time were handy workers in this country , i have exchanged emails with some in the US for 20 years discussing their dogs , and watched with interest how their dogs did once in europe , (bought mainly because they have papers ) some of these terriers have 5 gens of tight bred blood thats not seen a spade in all that time, i've kept related blood and bred some right turkeys off them ,  so to quote dillydog , could this be enough , does it not make a mockery of what many of us believe and has been written on this forum many times, "bred from your best workers" or is it just a case of the blood shines and it pure luck the best workers end up in the hands of people that work them  there is a certain amount of the devil advocate in these posts but Nuttall and Gould both told me years ago , a generation of no work does no harm, i just put it down to sales pitch from them  both  !!!!  

1 hour ago, dillydog said:

Because the  "force"  is strong in them ?

 

 

Edited February 11, 2019 by Glyn.....

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

But could you say the same from non descript breedings that also once worked .I know what you are saying Glyn but the same old boys advocated working a dog hard ,kill him and use his non working brother as a stud lol.Id rather things ticked along from generation to generation with no room for guessing and so I think would you .

[Apache... 2,588]

I wish I could be on this planet long enough to figure out how things work Glyn but I won't haha I just stick to the blood I know and hope it works.

[Apache... 2,588]

Oh and if you figure it out pm me.  

[pjmc 90]

I agree with breeding of your best in the kennel,it only makes sence.but what about what was always said to breed a hard dog to a soft dog and ul have something in the middle but if you breed hard to hard you will end up with a headcase with a short life and you go soft to soft ul end up with very little?

[tinytiger 822]

2 hours ago, Apache... said:

Oh and if you figure it out pm me.  

I did one night while staggering home,couldn't remember next morning. I worked this out by myself as well(only got halfway as yer man though). http://www.greyhoundinfo.org/?page_id=612   . There's a lot more factors governing whether terriers are any good than heart size and blood volume though.

[king 11,972]

3 hours ago, Glyn..... said:

i know that terriers bred the same way at the same time were handy workers in this country , i have exchanged emails with some in the US for 20 years discussing their dogs , and watched with interest how their dogs did once in europe , (bought mainly because they have papers ) some of these terriers have 5 gens of tight bred blood thats not seen a spade in all that time, i've kept related blood and bred some right turkeys off them ,  so to quote dillydog , could this be enough , does it not make a mockery of what many of us believe and has been written on this forum many times, "bred from your best workers" or is it just a case of the blood shines and it pure luck the best workers end up in the hands of people that work them  there is a certain amount of the devil advocate in these posts but Nuttall and Gould both told me years ago , a generation of no work does no harm, i just put it down to sales pitch from them  both  !!!!  

 

 

So if a line of dogs is kept from work for say 20yrs as in kept on the couch as pets then a young keen lad started working that line of dogs.would the 20yrs have an effect on the line ? 

Maybe not as the blood  is all ready there.

And how many years would it take to

Perfect a line of dogs.

Now I know no such line exist as in perfect. even after the digging terrier blood of maybe 150yrs.

Maybe 1000 years.woudnt even scratch the surface.or even 10,000 years the time cycle could even be infinate.

.And I think never end

I'm pretty sure after all these years and 1000s of breedings the digging terrier is still in its infancy as to what the terrier could produce.

It seems to me that it's an infinate cycle that keeps.going what is the perfect terrier and what would it look like.

Take for example the jaguar or leopard.

Now that's been bred through luck of survival etc.for 1000s or even hundreds of thousands of years to what we see today.as the ultimate animal.maybe it's not the ultimate animal as it's still evolving.

Could man even come close to perfecting the terrier in 200yrs as what mother nature could in 50'000 years.

My thoughts are no matter what we think of the modern terrier and great terrier men.

No one has even scratched the surface compared to what mother nature could in hundreds of thousands of years.

Maybe the old saying rings true.

Man wrecks everything he has ever touched.as in man thinks the modern terrier of today should have these and that traits etc.

It's a massive minefield that no man can explore.

But an amazing minefield that makes lads addicted to the thought of the ultimate terrier.

Which obviously doesn't even exist.

Lads talking about dogs is great.

But the reality is it's a total infinate chat.

That is endless.

Sorry for that rant Glyn.

Cheers king.

 

 

[rob284 1,682]

1 hour ago, king said:

So if a line of dogs is kept from work for say 20yrs as in kept on the couch as pets then a young keen lad started working that line of dogs.would the 20yrs have an effect on the line ? 

Maybe not as the blood  is all ready there.

And how many years would it take to

Perfect a line of dogs.

Now I know no such line exist as in perfect. even after the digging terrier blood of maybe 150yrs.

Maybe 1000 years.woudnt even scratch the surface.or even 10,000 years the time cycle could even be infinate.

.And I think never end

I'm pretty sure after all these years and 1000s of breedings the digging terrier is still in its infancy as to what the terrier could produce.

It seems to me that it's an infinate cycle that keeps.going what is the perfect terrier and what would it look like.

Take for example the jaguar or leopard.

Now that's been bred through luck of survival etc.for 1000s or even hundreds of thousands of years to what we see today.as the ultimate animal.maybe it's not the ultimate animal as it's still evolving.

Could man even come close to perfecting the terrier in 200yrs as what mother nature could in 50'000 years.

My thoughts are no matter what we think of the modern terrier and great terrier men.

No one has even scratched the surface compared to what mother nature could in hundreds of thousands of years.

Maybe the old saying rings true.

Man wrecks everything he has ever touched.as in man thinks the modern terrier of today should have these and that traits etc.

It's a massive minefield that no man can explore.

But an amazing minefield that makes lads addicted to the thought of the ultimate terrier.

Which obviously doesn't even exist.

Lads talking about dogs is great.

But the reality is it's a total infinate chat.

That is endless.

Sorry for that rant Glyn.

Cheers king.

 

 

Selective breeding is much quicker than Mother Nature and without man we wouldn’t even have a terrier. It is the most unnatural thing for a dog to do, but through years of selective breeding by man we have a strain of dogs that wants to go to ground and work in total darkness often facing quarry larger than itself, that is some achievement and we definitely haven’t wrecked anything, just tailored them to our needs, even if the odds are against us.

[C.green 3,229]

Dont think you can compare to natural world as man is trying to go away from nature with terriers and game animals in my opinion.

Edited February 12, 2019 by C.green

[dillydog 8,463]

8 hours ago, pjmc said:

I agree with breeding of your best in the kennel,it only makes sence.but what about what was always said to breed a hard dog to a soft dog and ul have something in the middle but if you breed hard to hard you will end up with a headcase with a short life and you go soft to soft ul end up with very little?

2 +2 doesn't  = 4 in breeding,  you'll only get out what you put in.  If you put hard in, you'll get hard out, it doesn't dilute down when crossed with steady. I agree that you've got to use a terrier with drive and spite to keep the edge in the mix but when you use hard over steady you'll just get some steady and some hard.

[Glyn..... 5,208]

i know for sure no one has ever produced the blueprint and i'll just plod on a while longer with my fingers crossed , i just thought it was interesting , its almost 100 years since Breay started line breeding and who knows how long the fell blood he and Buck used had been line breed before that , when i first saw these terriers going into europe i thought they were wasting their money but for all the modern theory on terrier breeding it hasn't been , its just 30 years of no testing and they still got workers  its harder to find out the % of failures thou  

[tinytiger 822]

1 hour ago, Glyn..... said:

i know for sure no one has ever produced the blueprint and i'll just plod on a while longer with my fingers crossed , i just thought it was interesting , its almost 100 years since Breay started line breeding and who knows how long the fell blood he and Buck used had been line breed before that , when i first saw these terriers going into europe i thought they were wasting their money but for all the modern theory on terrier breeding it hasn't been , its just 30 years of no testing and they still got workers  its harder to find out the % of failures thou  

In America 30 years might be 30 generations or only 4.(Id have thought they'd be too small)