SHOW US YOUR PATTERDALES

[Apache... 2,588]

Oh and if you figure it out pm me.  

[pjmc 90]

I agree with breeding of your best in the kennel,it only makes sence.but what about what was always said to breed a hard dog to a soft dog and ul have something in the middle but if you breed hard to hard you will end up with a headcase with a short life and you go soft to soft ul end up with very little?

[tinytiger 933]

2 hours ago, Apache... said:

Oh and if you figure it out pm me.  

I did one night while staggering home,couldn't remember next morning. I worked this out by myself as well(only got halfway as yer man though). http://www.greyhoundinfo.org/?page_id=612   . There's a lot more factors governing whether terriers are any good than heart size and blood volume though.

[king 12,042]

3 hours ago, Glyn..... said:

i know that terriers bred the same way at the same time were handy workers in this country , i have exchanged emails with some in the US for 20 years discussing their dogs , and watched with interest how their dogs did once in europe , (bought mainly because they have papers ) some of these terriers have 5 gens of tight bred blood thats not seen a spade in all that time, i've kept related blood and bred some right turkeys off them ,  so to quote dillydog , could this be enough , does it not make a mockery of what many of us believe and has been written on this forum many times, "bred from your best workers" or is it just a case of the blood shines and it pure luck the best workers end up in the hands of people that work them  there is a certain amount of the devil advocate in these posts but Nuttall and Gould both told me years ago , a generation of no work does no harm, i just put it down to sales pitch from them  both  !!!!  

 

 

So if a line of dogs is kept from work for say 20yrs as in kept on the couch as pets then a young keen lad started working that line of dogs.would the 20yrs have an effect on the line ? 

Maybe not as the blood  is all ready there.

And how many years would it take to

Perfect a line of dogs.

Now I know no such line exist as in perfect. even after the digging terrier blood of maybe 150yrs.

Maybe 1000 years.woudnt even scratch the surface.or even 10,000 years the time cycle could even be infinate.

.And I think never end

I'm pretty sure after all these years and 1000s of breedings the digging terrier is still in its infancy as to what the terrier could produce.

It seems to me that it's an infinate cycle that keeps.going what is the perfect terrier and what would it look like.

Take for example the jaguar or leopard.

Now that's been bred through luck of survival etc.for 1000s or even hundreds of thousands of years to what we see today.as the ultimate animal.maybe it's not the ultimate animal as it's still evolving.

Could man even come close to perfecting the terrier in 200yrs as what mother nature could in 50'000 years.

My thoughts are no matter what we think of the modern terrier and great terrier men.

No one has even scratched the surface compared to what mother nature could in hundreds of thousands of years.

Maybe the old saying rings true.

Man wrecks everything he has ever touched.as in man thinks the modern terrier of today should have these and that traits etc.

It's a massive minefield that no man can explore.

But an amazing minefield that makes lads addicted to the thought of the ultimate terrier.

Which obviously doesn't even exist.

Lads talking about dogs is great.

But the reality is it's a total infinate chat.

That is endless.

Sorry for that rant Glyn.

Cheers king.

 

 

[rob284 1,682]

1 hour ago, king said:

So if a line of dogs is kept from work for say 20yrs as in kept on the couch as pets then a young keen lad started working that line of dogs.would the 20yrs have an effect on the line ? 

Maybe not as the blood  is all ready there.

And how many years would it take to

Perfect a line of dogs.

Now I know no such line exist as in perfect. even after the digging terrier blood of maybe 150yrs.

Maybe 1000 years.woudnt even scratch the surface.or even 10,000 years the time cycle could even be infinate.

.And I think never end

I'm pretty sure after all these years and 1000s of breedings the digging terrier is still in its infancy as to what the terrier could produce.

It seems to me that it's an infinate cycle that keeps.going what is the perfect terrier and what would it look like.

Take for example the jaguar or leopard.

Now that's been bred through luck of survival etc.for 1000s or even hundreds of thousands of years to what we see today.as the ultimate animal.maybe it's not the ultimate animal as it's still evolving.

Could man even come close to perfecting the terrier in 200yrs as what mother nature could in 50'000 years.

My thoughts are no matter what we think of the modern terrier and great terrier men.

No one has even scratched the surface compared to what mother nature could in hundreds of thousands of years.

Maybe the old saying rings true.

Man wrecks everything he has ever touched.as in man thinks the modern terrier of today should have these and that traits etc.

It's a massive minefield that no man can explore.

But an amazing minefield that makes lads addicted to the thought of the ultimate terrier.

Which obviously doesn't even exist.

Lads talking about dogs is great.

But the reality is it's a total infinate chat.

That is endless.

Sorry for that rant Glyn.

Cheers king.

 

 

Selective breeding is much quicker than Mother Nature and without man we wouldn’t even have a terrier. It is the most unnatural thing for a dog to do, but through years of selective breeding by man we have a strain of dogs that wants to go to ground and work in total darkness often facing quarry larger than itself, that is some achievement and we definitely haven’t wrecked anything, just tailored them to our needs, even if the odds are against us.

[C.green 3,262]

Dont think you can compare to natural world as man is trying to go away from nature with terriers and game animals in my opinion.

Edited February 12, 2019 by C.green

[dillydog 8,530]

8 hours ago, pjmc said:

I agree with breeding of your best in the kennel,it only makes sence.but what about what was always said to breed a hard dog to a soft dog and ul have something in the middle but if you breed hard to hard you will end up with a headcase with a short life and you go soft to soft ul end up with very little?

2 +2 doesn't  = 4 in breeding,  you'll only get out what you put in.  If you put hard in, you'll get hard out, it doesn't dilute down when crossed with steady. I agree that you've got to use a terrier with drive and spite to keep the edge in the mix but when you use hard over steady you'll just get some steady and some hard.

[Glyn..... 5,235]

i know for sure no one has ever produced the blueprint and i'll just plod on a while longer with my fingers crossed , i just thought it was interesting , its almost 100 years since Breay started line breeding and who knows how long the fell blood he and Buck used had been line breed before that , when i first saw these terriers going into europe i thought they were wasting their money but for all the modern theory on terrier breeding it hasn't been , its just 30 years of no testing and they still got workers  its harder to find out the % of failures thou  

[tinytiger 933]

1 hour ago, Glyn..... said:

i know for sure no one has ever produced the blueprint and i'll just plod on a while longer with my fingers crossed , i just thought it was interesting , its almost 100 years since Breay started line breeding and who knows how long the fell blood he and Buck used had been line breed before that , when i first saw these terriers going into europe i thought they were wasting their money but for all the modern theory on terrier breeding it hasn't been , its just 30 years of no testing and they still got workers  its harder to find out the % of failures thou  

In America 30 years might be 30 generations or only 4.(Id have thought they'd be too small)

[chesney 5,737]

Cant make head nor tail of this inbreeding linebreeding genetics x y chromsomes stuff il just take a chance and breed them as close as possible and say prayer for them everytime they go ta ground if they stay till dug to my prayers been answered and if they walk well they have a bed in doggy heaven.

[MIK 4,763]

This mild weather has melted most of the snow .....it was breezy on the tops today ...scent was all over the place 

[Mickle123 888]

[Ace Boone coon 648]

On 11/02/2019 at 14:44, Glyn..... said:

i know that terriers bred the same way at the same time were handy workers in this country , i have exchanged emails with some in the US for 20 years discussing their dogs , and watched with interest how their dogs did once in europe , (bought mainly because they have papers ) some of these terriers have 5 gens of tight bred blood thats not seen a spade in all that time, i've kept related blood and bred some right turkeys off them ,  so to quote dillydog , could this be enough , does it not make a mockery of what many of us believe and has been written on this forum many times, "bred from your best workers" or is it just a case of the blood shines and it pure luck the best workers end up in the hands of people that work them  there is a certain amount of the devil advocate in these posts but Nuttall and Gould both told me years ago , a generation of no work does no harm, i just put it down to sales pitch from them  both  !!!!  

 

 

Glyn so believe worker produces a worker and a non worker can't produce a worker?  I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you said right. And just because the folks you talk to over here are not doing anything with there dog's does not mean other's are not.  And no not everyone over here buys dogs because of the paper's either,  that is the dumbest thing I ever heard!  But there are some that do and there are just as many that do over on your side also.  So what's your point to that?  You and others always slate the American which isn't cool because we're not all fucktard and give a f**k about PEDs. And if your gonna talk trash talk about the ones on your side of the pond selling to these fucktard over here there stolen dogs and fake PEDs! We don't have dog thieves like over there buddy just some peddlers and paper hangers. I like what you have to say Glyn but you talk about all Americans and  you sound like a racist! And I'm not sure you ever heard this before but I'll say it anyways,  NOT ALL WORKERS ARE PRODUCER'S,  AND SOMETIMES THE ONE NOBODY WANTS IS THE PRODUCER!  ever hear that before?  That's why a lot of great pit men had big yards!  The good ones kept whole litters for a reason. Is it always better to bred to a great worker?  Of course it is!  But don't ever say the cold dog won't produce a great working dog because it's been proven why to many times that it could.  I'm just saying

[fat man 4,742]

12 hours ago, Ace Boone coon said:

Glyn so believe worker produces a worker and a non worker can't produce a worker?  I'm not sure if I'm understanding what you said right. And just because the folks you talk to over here are not doing anything with there dog's does not mean other's are not.  And no not everyone over here buys dogs because of the paper's either,  that is the dumbest thing I ever heard!  But there are some that do and there are just as many that do over on your side also.  So what's your point to that?  You and others always slate the American which isn't cool because we're not all fucktard and give a f**k about PEDs. And if your gonna talk trash talk about the ones on your side of the pond selling to these fucktard over here there stolen dogs and fake PEDs! We don't have dog thieves like over there buddy just some peddlers and paper hangers. I like what you have to say Glyn but you talk about all Americans and  you sound like a racist! And I'm not sure you ever heard this before but I'll say it anyways,  NOT ALL WORKERS ARE PRODUCER'S,  AND SOMETIMES THE ONE NOBODY WANTS IS THE PRODUCER!  ever hear that before?  That's why a lot of great pit men had big yards!  The good ones kept whole litters for a reason. Is it always better to bred to a great worker?  Of course it is!  But don't ever say the cold dog won't produce a great working dog because it's been proven why to many times that it could.  I'm just saying

Any bitch from a non worker to a complete cur can produce a good if not outstanding worker as has happened some several times with different dogs but its to breed proven workers consistently litter after litter that's where breeding and know how come into practice.many years ago I had a dog who built himself quite a reputation as a digging dog but put to several good digging bitchs never produced anything worth mentioning and then on one occasion a man took his bitch to him to get a service just because he liked the look of the dog and this was a non hunting man and bitch actually I'd go as far as to say the bitch was never of the lead.she went on to have 4 pups 3 dogs and a bitch.he arrived at my house with a 8 week old bitch pup which I did not want but my son who was only 4 at the time wanted the pup so I took it for him.like a lot of kids he soon grew tired of the pup but at this stage she was about 9 months old And mad keen already finding and killing rats in the ditch begin the house.when the season came around she was about 13 months and nice and strong so I decided to give her a try and she took to the earth work like a natural.they were pre locater days and I lost her in a big embankment at the back of a quarry in her second season but by then she had accounted for a lot of game.in my mind she was just a freak from a good dog to a bitch that never seen a field let alone an earth but she was a very useful bitch.I met the man and asked him how the mother to the bitch was bred and he told me he bought her as a pup in the pet shop but goes to show a bad one can throw a will throw the odd good one but not consistently.

[rob284 1,682]

On 11/02/2019 at 20:44, Glyn..... said:

i know that terriers bred the same way at the same time were handy workers in this country , i have exchanged emails with some in the US for 20 years discussing their dogs , and watched with interest how their dogs did once in europe , (bought mainly because they have papers ) some of these terriers have 5 gens of tight bred blood thats not seen a spade in all that time, i've kept related blood and bred some right turkeys off them ,  so to quote dillydog , could this be enough , does it not make a mockery of what many of us believe and has been written on this forum many times, "bred from your best workers" or is it just a case of the blood shines and it pure luck the best workers end up in the hands of people that work them  there is a certain amount of the devil advocate in these posts but Nuttall and Gould both told me years ago , a generation of no work does no harm, i just put it down to sales pitch from them  both  !!!!  

 

 

Gould would say that, he was churning pups out just to supply demand often not being straight with where they came from.