Pipe Cleaners

[Kane 2]

To those that dig regularly (bolting doesnt count) what would you say is the smallest dog or bitch you have dug to successfully on a regular basis,I have always favoured the stronger digging dogs though others do like the smaller ones,the smallest terrier I have dug to was about 11 inches at the shoulder and weighed 16 pounds it wasnt my dog it did well just wondered what others experiances were ,cheers.

[pickaxe 23]

about the samen you , small yappers are ok for earth stopping and bolting , but for a hard run fox , or a bigfox in a big place you have to have the the bigger terrier ...jmo

[phil wright 2]

im not very experienced at terrierwork compared to some but ive had small but game terriers that have taken too much hammer for my liking so now i like 13/14 inch terriers........however i visited a welsh pack last may to pick up my terrier and was suprised at how small their terriers were.these 11 inch dogs were dug to on a regular basis and their owners considered my 14 inch dog to be too big for most of the earths in their hunt country.

[pickaxe 23]

i've been out with a lot of welsh packs , and i'd agree with you ...but what you need to tell them is you only work one at a time !!!!!!

[phil wright 2]

......i never saw the smaller dogs work as mine got the chance first.

[Kye 77]

I like a big strong dog...been let down buy to many crappie little yappers that cant keep an animal bottled up...i still like a decent sized dog, and unless your digging Ground Hogs, i dont think you need a small one!...I have been with FR when we have dug to his black bitch Blanc on Possom and Gh...I have dug GH with my red bitch as well...there not real big, i would say there well put togther animals...the smallest is probably my wifes little white bitch...at a guess i would say 11" and 11lbs...but i dont know how she would do against a fox or big Coon?...i think if it wanted to run, it would, she just dont have the size...but i havent done enough digging over here to have an opinion yet...all the best

Kye..

[Royston2 0]

Kane i have one at 16" and about 24lbs who i feel hasn`t got what it takes as last season he was put in a golden oppurtunity to show his worth from the pure size of the dog and he never, he showed me he was as big mentally as a little bayer on the other hand i have not long purchased a new terrier who is about 11 1/2 at the shoulder about 20lb`s and i dont know yet as i have only dug to him twice but he aint the type to be bullied to much, though lets face it if something wants to budge no matter how game he is he wont stop it purely through size............

[Stabs 3]

I've seen good small ones and good big ones and bad examples of both too. It's not always the size of the animal that determines success. It's often what the animal does when it's too ground that's the telling factor. I think you can offer a preference at the end of the day, but there are determining factors such as terrain, quarry (the yanks and their groundhogs), bolt/stay & dig etc.

 

I've had poor small dogs myself for the digging game in the past but it's not always black and white, you don't have to have a small or a big one after all. There is middle ground. I have a dog here that is too big for most earths and it really limits me to what I can do. If you 've got space, then have a few handy tools in the kennel, or if you are lucky enough to have the the ideal dog, then you're laughing.

 

The last two dogs that spring to mind that are doing an excellent job I would describe as small, so it just goes to show...

[PBurns 9]

Every sette is different and every dog is different -- you use the right tool for the job depending on what the job is and it is not all about size -- though size is very, very important

 

Some dogs have seven or eight tricks up their sleeve -- they are able to work different types of quarry differently and work the same types of quarry differently depending on the sette and the nature of the animal (every fox is different, isn't it? -- there's a topic starter -- ). These dogs with multiple tricks are like an expanding wrench -- they can fit a wide array of nuts. The size of an expanding wrench doesn't matter too much -- even the smallest one will fit most nuts that you encounter.

 

If you have a dog that only knows one trick it is a bit like having a wrench that fits only one nut. Fox and several other creatures we have over here in the U.S. (raccoon, possum) do not dig away and a one-trick bayer with a few teeth will work fine on those.

 

If a dog will only bay, however, it will lose an animal that can rapidly dig away, like a groundhog or (where they exist and can be found) American badger. By the same token, a dog that goes in to grab on every animal it encounters is a dog with an equally limited repetoire. It will be out of work some of the season as it will take a lot of punishment. I hunt every weekend with a limited number of dogs and cannot afford broken dogs.

 

A large raccoon can do a tremendous amount of damage to a dog if it goes in and tries to horse it -- the neck on these North American animals is not very large, the skull is very thick, and the teeth and jaws are very powerful. A dog will get lucky some times, but it cannot expect to get lucky all the time, and if it gets unlucky it may be out of the field for some time. A groundhog does not look like much, but it has no neck at all and has teeth like chisels; it is just about impossible for a dog to kill a large adult underground. Since over here in the States we can easily work four or five groundhogs in a day, a dog that goes in to grip the head of every groundhog it encounters is likely to be a dog that is hung up some weeks. This is a dog with limited use and perhaps a lot of expense and heartbreak as well.

 

I have never seen a fox or raccoon run over a dog to get out the hole. I'm sure it has happened, but I have not seen it. I have never seen a fox dig away from a dog like some other animals can. Fox are as variable as the dog -- you cannot say they are all this or all that. We dug on one Sunday that was very small, but equally tough as it had kits in the den. A small dog drove it back 20 feet baying the entire time. It locked on only when we broke through at 6 feet, and locking on was not necessary and a bit stupid on the part of the dog -- the fox had nowhere to go.

 

I do not need a dog to kill fox for me -- I am much better at that than it is. What I need is a dog that will find the fox, bottle the fox, and be able to do it again next weekend. We worked five animals on Sunday (the fox was the last), but we will probably not be working that one dog this next weekend as she had some muzzle damage that needs repair. Another dog from the same kennel has been laid up for a month after another encounter with an animal (truthfully I cannot remember the species, much less the animal) in which it insisted on horsing the front end and paid the price by sitting it our for three weeks now (and at least 2 more to go).

 

In my country and with our quarry smaller is almost always better. I have yet to see a fox or raccoon that wanted to fight when it could flee. Earthstop the exit and dig down. It is a pretty simple way of doing the job and it works. A smaller dog always seems to work better as it can move quicker to get up to the animal and can negotiate around corners (rock and roots) better. A larger dog has to squeeze around corners and obstructions, and can take a tremendous amount of punishment from an animal laying up on the other side.

 

Imagine a fat man squeezing between a wall and regrigerator while it is being beaten on by a smaller lunatic -- that's what it's like at these choke points in a sette and a big dog is always at a disadvantage. It's great that the big fat man is there to kill the lunatic barehanded at the end of the day, but is that really the job you needed to be done? And will the fat man be able to do the job the next weekend after being beaten around the head with a frying pan? Killing is best done with a gun, or a blow to the head, or a knife well used and well placed. And it is best done by a human.

 

I take a lot of novice diggers out and some are big on "pull dogs". Apparently this is what you call your dog when it is too large to actually get down a pipe to do the real job of a terrier Such dogs are useful and I am not denying it, but a nicety is not the same as a necessity, is it? If you know how to handle quarry at the end of a dig (now there's a topic for the boards!) it is generally not necessary to to have a pull dog get the job done.

 

I have three dogs of three sizes -- 11 inches, 12 inches and 15 inches and they always work (or worked) in that order. The 11 inch bitch weighs about 10 pounds, is very experienced and very smart and has more tricks than a Swiss Army knife. She was dug on over 100 times last year and worked it all (raccoon, fox, groundhog, possum) and she generally comes away without a scratch. Her only trouble is that in very cold weather she will hang it up after the third or fourth dig -- she runs out of steam. It's not the underground stuff that gets her -- it's the wind after the wet of the earth as she is a smooth. I never worry about this dog underground, never worry that she will let the quarry escape, never worry about her running off or marking false.

 

The 12 inch dog has a great nose, but she is a bit big for some tight groundhog earths and has had trouble getting to the back end of one or two fox settes. She seems to be fine on fox and raccoon, but she continues to try to horse the front end of groundhogs and does not use her voice on them enough. She is a tool in development.

 

The 15 inch dog is retired now -- a broken tool. This dog was extremely hard and was retired by a groundhog that cut away most of his face by getting an incisor up under the maxilla and cutting back the hide all the way to the eye. The entire maxilla (including the nose) lifted up off his face like a bonnet on a car. The dog had to be fed through a tube in its necks for several weeks and cost me $3,000 in vet bills (I never go to vets, I doctor my own dogs, and I am very cheap, so you can do the figuring at what would make me do this). The dog is now retired because his sinuses were crushed and the dog has obstructed breathing as a consqequence. This accident was a bit of a freak, in my opinion, but there is no doubt in my mind that it was caused by it being too big a dog and too hard a dog in a difficult earth. Too hard and too large are a serious liability in my opinion, and when combined (at least on our quarry) they are a serious injury waiting to happen. If you don't dig very much (say only four or five times a year), you may never learn why too big and too hard is trouble, but if you drop 100 holes or more a year, as I and some of my friends do, you will discover the value of a dog that can get anywhere, find it, move it to a stop end, and be ready for the next one, whether that is that same day and just up the hedgerow, or the next weekend on an entirely different farm.

 

 

Patrick

[Guest Ash]

Good post carreg Most of the realy good earth dogs have been small in size but [bANNED TEXT] i say small i do not mean weak. eg 13 inch 15 pounds or there abouts. What i did notice during my 15 or so years with terriers was the terrier men that only worked to or three foxes a year with the massive bull crosses and stone hard black lackies etc. Round the shows telling how there dog had killed its fox ever time and well i wernt to suprised [bANNED TEXT] you seen the feckin size. It realy up set me [bANNED TEXT] some young new start to the game would listen to these plonckers and would then go by a pup. totaly to big for most earth work. PEOPLE ARE IMPRESSED WITH THE BIG BOLD KILLING MACHINES AND THATS A FACT. But the real terriers will always be the ones you can depend on in most area soil rock tree roots it dont mater they get there. :realmad:

[pickaxe 23]

not the case for me the two best a bitch 13" and 18 pound in wight and a dog 14 and 20 pound , both where low slung and a bit of length to there backs

[Royston2 0]

Here you go one end of the table to the other.........

[Hybred 3]

if the dogs a bit big surley if it up for it , it will get there anyway

 

Hybred

[Guest Ash]

Only if you pick its earths mate. the foxes round here tend to go were they fackin like alot of rock and alot of tight tree roots and if you terrier dont fit then unless you give it a fe ckin kango or chain saw it wont get there.

[celt 1]

We have always found a terrier of 13-15inch and 18-25lb, seems to do the best, they can put up with multiple hard digs. These 14lb and 14inch terriers which are meant to be the ideal are worryingly light in my opinion.

 

Celt