question for the experianced breeder

[dev 227]

just a quick question to the more experianced breeders on here. in the litters bred from father to daughter matings, did more of the pups make the grade than in a litter of unrelated worker to worker?? and was the standard of the pups produced normally as good as the sire and dam?

[bignoel 14]

a lad in tipp wanted to put my dog the father to his bitch his choice she had 5 pup's and lost them all ?

[liamdelaney 2,587]

Dev breed them tight and keep them tight then you will always know what you have.You know what is in your dogs otherwise you would not have them.You dont know what is in someone elses(regardless of what he tells you)Them dogs i posted a few nights ago are as tight as you can go some are brother to sister (done me no harm)So i know exactly what is in them.We went to an outcross a few years ago disaster Put down everone of them at a year and a half waste of f*****g time.There was shit back the other line(we heard this later)Dont mind the EXPERTS telling you about pups born with 4 heads bullshit.If the father and daughter has passed your test(ive seen some of your digs)thats the way to go

[bud9 79]

just a quick question to the more experianced breeders on here. in the litters bred from father to daughter matings, did more of the pups make the grade than in a litter of unrelated worker to worker?? and was the standard of the pups produced normally as good as the sire and dam?

my terrier dog puped i bitch pup off him it was a genuine mistake a was in spain at the time anyways the pups turned out ok as far as i no execpt the one a had but a put that down to the police and the rspca thay took the pup off me for a case the pup was 8 weeks old at the time when it came back to me after 11 month the case was dropped thay told me the pup was brain damaged and short siteed but the pup was fine before thay c**ts took it nobody will no the truth except the sspca scum

[Guest E.Mc]

Father daughter breedings IMO are not a problem

guy I know is digging to a young dog from a mating

father/daughter, and it's bang on it's stuff, the rest

of the pups from the same litter are all comming on

well also. As Liam says, if the selected dog and bitch

have proved themselves worthy of breeding from go

for it, keep em tight and you shouldn't go wrong. I've

seen matings like this in bull breeds and and seen no

problems either.

[Waz 4,266]

Father x daughter, as you can see starting work early!

 

 

By the way, Dev, you asked for replies from more experienced breeders, so I should stay out of this thread. Im only interested in hard working them. Cheers

Edited February 6, 2009 by GD Waz

[Guest ferret feller]

nice piccie

[Bryan 1,362]

losing size is the main problem with going that tight.

[the_stig 6,614]

i`ve had some good stuff out of father daughter matings - if its from grafting lines then in theory they should graft although good grafting lines do throw up a percentage of non workers .. the last litter i had from f/d mating was a nightmare within a year the whole litter had been put down skin problems in 4 and blindness in 1 , 2 died at 3 week good strong healthy pups the vet put it down to thr hormone system .. this mating was out of a bitch i`d brought in so what matings had gone on before i dont know . imo if you keep your lines tight and know the line you should be o.k. its a risk you take

[dev 227]

thanks for the replys, ive already done the mating, the pups are 9 months old now, i was just wondering was the percentage of workers produced, higher than the percentage of workers produced from unrelated worker to worker. thanks laim and the stig for your input

[the_stig 6,614]

thanks for the replys, ive already done the mating, the pups are 9 months old now, i was just wondering was the percentage of workers produced, higher than the percentage of workers produced from unrelated worker to worker. thanks laim and the stig for your input

dev - have you shown then anything yet ? .. i had a litter of 5 , 4 dogs and a bitch out of a well know black line from the 80s all done the job 2 yr later i repeated the mating 4 dogs 2 bitchs i kept a dog back he turned out to be a mardy screaming spewer the other 5 all done what was expected the bitchs whr a bit slower to get going but once they did they whr as handy as the dogs ..

[Greengrass 202]

How are yours acting at 9 months Dev ? are they giving off the right signs

cheers

[dev 227]

thanks stig, thats the type of info i was hoping to get. cheers. my 9 months have seen nothing yet apart from a caged rat at 4 months.which they killed

[labsnlurchers 39]

Myth#2. Inbreeding is bad; it causes sick and unstable dogs.

This goes with the idea (also erroneous) than inbreeding doesn't occur in nature. Man's cultural taboos on inbreeding is largely behind all these myths. Inbreeding (linebreeding) & outcrossing are essentially neutral tools used to effect certain ends. It is certainly true that such a thing as inbreeding depression occurs when there is a loss of diversity among (some particular) genes in some individuals sometimes in some species, but there is also such a phenomena as outbreeding depression that occurs when you "mess with" a 'good' set of genes by introducing "new blood" into a breeding program. All this is demonstrated in wild as well as zoo populations as well as various domestic animal breeding programs. The point is you just cannot point & say "inbreeding is bad, outcrossing is good;" nature is never than simplistic. Bad breeding decisions often end in sick & unstable animals, but even the best breeding program has individuals who may fall ill. Along with this is the problem of confusing heterozygosity with heterosis (hybrid vigor). The latter is a first generation trait that occurs ONLY in the offspring of two individuals who are themselves from pure(in)bred strains; heterozygosity is a term that relates to whether a given individual has two or one kind of gene (alleles) at any given gene location (locus). The two terms don't even relate to the same level of discussion, and a hybrid is not necessarily "better." Having information on the actual animals in question is what is critical & no formula can replace that all important criteria. The results of any breeding demonstrate the skill (& luck) of the breeder. One of the most inbred lines of dogs in the world has the lowest breed incidence of hip dysplasia and the highest success rate as superior companion dogs--the seeing eye German Shepherd. Which is NOT to say "inbreeding is good;" the old breeder's saw about having to do an outcross every few generations is based on the observation that continuous inbreeding over generations can result in "inbreeding depression;" a phenomena, assumably, having to do with having too much similarity (homozygosity) among certain genes (such as immune genes). The point is one simply does not make breeding or buying choices based on single criteria or "cookbook" formulas--random outcrossing is as deadly as blindly linebreeding--smart breeders make careful selections every generation.

 

INBREEDING, LINEBREEDING, OUTCROSSING-WHICH IS BEST?

To paraphrase the great Laura Kialenaus, what matters is the quality and qualities of the dogs in question; not the "formula" by which they are bred. Linebreeding is often touted as some sort of special way to get good dogs. Linebreeding is simply weak inbreeding, so carries all the problems of both outcrossing and inbreeding & simply gives people uncomfortable with the idea of inbreeding a way to comfortably inbreed to retain desired characteristics. The degree of relationship, in any case, does not necessarily indicate the amount of genetic material shared. Everyone has seen two "identical" cousins, as well as brother-sister pairs as unlike as night and day to illustrate this point. Again, sophisticated decisions, based on in depth knowledge of what those pedigrees mean, are needed. To breed two dogs together (wisely and for good results) you must have intimate knowledge of the dogs in their respective pedigrees & what characteristics they likely share.

 

Outcrossing: used to be (still is?) the time honored way to deal with a genetic problem. When your line shows a problem, breed out to "get rid of it." Except you don't --it is still there, now just hidden--along with whatever the sire's family also contributed "in secret". It may be back to haunt you (and your puppy buyers) later on. Document what you got & what you are getting. Outcross when you need a "hybrid state" for best expression. Outcross to bring things into your line you cannot find within it & know some unseen "travelers" will accompany the traits you desire. The best outcrosses may not really be outcrosses at all, as two separate families with similar styles & traits are merged together; different names, but maybe the same 'good' genes for good heads are present, for example, in both families. These trait or type breedings (assortive/assortative matings) are a strategy to get the "good" genes for a trait without doubling up on a specific individual. They have the extra added advantage to the breed (if not your specific breeding) of possibly helping to preserve diversity in the population. Of course, many "outcrossings" wouldn't be that if extended pedigrees were viewed: many breeds & many major & successful bloodlines in a breed go back to a handful of the same relatives (& this is not necessarily a bad thing, if the dogs were good). Again, information on the dogs in question is so necessary.

 

Inbreeding: brings skeletons out of the closet. They were already there, but now you have to face them. It can be a great tool for finding out what you didn't know about your bloodlines, but it takes a steely heart to face up to what you find. It also takes great dogs to breed close as you are fixing traits fast and hard. The closer the breeding, the better the two dogs must be to make it worth it. Call weak inbreeding linebreeding if you like, but breeding dogs closely related is technically inbreeding (although there is a good argument to separate the two), as the point is to double-up on desired family characteristics by doubling up on the desired genes. But most everything recessive in the family eventually pops up, good & bad, when line-breeding over generations, so eventually blind line-breeding leads to the same bottleneck as intense inbreeding; it just takes longer to get there. The bad news about inbreeding is that the homozygous sought may be found. In other words, you are trying to double up on genes for good heads or strong hearts, but also double up on the genes in the immune system & that can lead to inbreeding depression. So be careful what you wish for when inbreeding, especially repeatedly &/or tightly.

 

Brackett's Formula: "Let the sire of the sire become the grandsire on the dam's side." Lloyd Brackett's prescription for linebreeding has proven very effective WHEN the dog linebred on is a truly superior example of the breed_&_can correct the weaknesses in the bitch/pedigree in question. Pat Craige Trotter in her book "Born To Win" discusses some successful strategies & possible formulas for particular situations, but no "cookbook approach" to dogs will ever work: breeding dogs is an artful science or a scientific art and takes both talent and study to properly accomplish. Outcrossing can be like sweeping problems under the rug (if it is really an outcross that is done). The pups from two such lines now carry some mishmash of what either or both parents brought down out of their families.

 

 

I have put a link up with more info before in the health section, ill see if i can find it and bump it, its got some good stuff in there about culling etc

 

you will never be 100% that there are no skeletons in your lines closet but that goes for an outcross too, aslong as you select your breeding carefully and have as much info on the past generations as possible then there is everychance you will get a decent litter.

Everyone knows you get variation within lines with some turning out better than others, its very rare that you get a full litter of pups that will make the very highest grade in the feild, this is where linebreeding plays a part, you are cutting down on the variation because you are reducing the number of different lines in the pups and therefore reducing the variation in the pups genetic makeup but if you have 2 decent dogs from generations of good stock then you wont go far wrong whether they are related or not.

[the_stig 6,614]

thanks stig, thats the type of info i was hoping to get. cheers. my 9 months have seen nothing yet apart from a caged rat at 4 months.which they killed

we had our last dig at the week end you still going ? give em a bit of a rag and get em out on your last few digs if your not already .. otherwise you`ve got another 9 mnths or so to go got 2 pups i`m running on gettin started for a mate ready for next yr they`ve been ratting since 5mth and been on a few digs and had a couple of rags thr nearly 8 months couple more weeks ratting then thr off to his for the show season i`ll get em entered for him at around 17 months .. Edited February 6, 2009 by the_stig