mccroryart 0 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 What sort of diet are your dog/dog's on mate?What feed do you feed them? Atb T 7 I use a dried food base to which i add fresh meat/fat and bones depending on season ie butchers waste, rabbits etc + cooked vegtables, the odd egg any table scraps are given as well. The dried feed gives a baseline that can then be individualised to any adult given dogs requirements. In simple terms increase protien while building up, increase fat in colder weather or if lots of stamina type work, increase carbs for lots of sprinting while balencing the others out so to not over/underfeed. Used to use a lot of fish and tripe but the supply dried up but giving a good variety is a good way of covering ll the micro and macro nutrients. MTS the research is mainly older than dog food lol. That’s sounds sensible to me and easy enough to follow and adjust to individual needs and circumstances. Thanks for taking the time to pass this on Eamonn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiny 7 1,694 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 What sort of diet are your dog/dog's on mate?What feed do you feed them? Atb T 7 I use a dried food base to which i add fresh meat/fat and bones depending on season ie butchers waste, rabbits etc + cooked vegtables, the odd egg any table scraps are given as well. The dried feed gives a baseline that can then be individualised to any adult given dogs requirements. In simple terms increase protien while building up, increase fat in colder weather or if lots of stamina type work, increase carbs for lots of sprinting while balencing the others out so to not over/underfeed. Used to use a lot of fish and tripe but the supply dried up but giving a good variety is a good way of covering ll the micro and macro nutrients. MTS the research is mainly older than dog food lol. Thank's mate.. What sort of dried food do you use? Do you feed raw with dry food because i thought the degestine times where diffrent but aint sure? what do think about useing beef suet to adding fat to a diet? Many thank' T 7 Sorry about the spelling... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTS 0 Posted January 30, 2009 Report Share Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) What sort of diet are your dog/dog's on mate?What feed do you feed them? Atb T 7 I use a dried food base to which i add fresh meat/fat and bones depending on season ie butchers waste, rabbits etc + cooked vegtables, the odd egg any table scraps are given as well. The dried feed gives a baseline that can then be individualised to any adult given dogs requirements. In simple terms increase protien while building up, increase fat in colder weather or if lots of stamina type work, increase carbs for lots of sprinting while balencing the others out so to not over/underfeed. Used to use a lot of fish and tripe but the supply dried up but giving a good variety is a good way of covering ll the micro and macro nutrients. MTS the research is mainly older than dog food lol. Oh no it isn't .......feeding dried carbs only came in with James Spratt in the 1860,s and commercial dog food generally in the 1950's and kibble in the 1970's Your assertion that a gundogs metabolism is different from a running dog worries me, surely not, it is the form and function that is different .......please point me to your sources Edited January 30, 2009 by MTS Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted January 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 (edited) Thank's mate.. What sort of dried food do you use? Do you feed raw with dry food because i thought the degestine times where diffrent but aint sure? what do think about useing beef suet to adding fat to a diet? Many thank' T 7 Sorry about the spelling... (Tny 7) It's a good idea to get a dog used to more than one brand. Try a few and see what suits you at the mo I'm using wag as it seems to suit mine but other owners don't like it. I tend to feed raw on different days but in truth i eat a steak with a salad and it doesn't seem to harm me. Used to give raw fish with a complete to the racers and again had no problems it's realy down to personal taste. Beef suit? again a little as part of a balenced diet if it's real beef fat rather than the stuff out of a packet. Oh no it isn't .......feeding dried carbs only came in with James Spratt in the 1860,s and commercial dog food generally in the 1950's and kibble in the 1970's Your assertion that a gundogs metabolism is different from a running dog worries me, surely not, it is the form and function that is different .......please point me to your sources (MTS) Read the first post "carbohydrate and the working" dog the simplefied science is in there lol. Dog feed manufactures didn't invent biochemistry these processes are older than multicelled life. Comparing the nutritional needs of a gundog and a lurcher is a little like a marathon runner to a 100m runner of course they are different. A sprinter is going to have a greater reliance on glucose than a dog that works at a slower pace and so there diet needs to match their needs. Edited January 31, 2009 by sandymere Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTS 0 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 Read the first post "carbohydrate and the working" dog the simplefied science is in there lol. Dog feed manufactures didn't invent biochemistry these processes are older than multicelled life. Comparing the nutritional needs of a gundog and a lurcher is a little like a marathon runner to a 100m runner of course they are different. A sprinter is going to have a greater reliance on glucose than a dog that works at a slower pace and so there diet needs to match their needs. No you are wrong......the difference is in the different form of the dog not in a different metabolism. You keep writing about glucose do your research on glycogen not glucose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dogs-n-natives 1,182 Posted January 31, 2009 Report Share Posted January 31, 2009 I dont agree with all your points, I may be wrong, not sure what to make of it though. Your saying that carbs are so important in a dogs diet.... you say that over thousands of years we would have fed dogs scraps, which would mainly consist of carbs... i dont really agree with that, as dogs were initially used for hunting meat, and this remained the primary purpose of them for thousands of years, and i belive they would have been fed on their natural food of meat and bone, probably the trimmings, heads etc? Are you saying that our modern dogs digestive systems have developed a need for carbs due to being fed them for many years? If so I think your wrong, our dogs nutritional needs are no different from that of a wolf in the wild, and you dont see wolves going out of their way to get carbs into their diets. Just some opinions of mine.... As you may have guessed, my dogs eat a natural diet... the kind of stuff they would choose if they were feeding themselves in the wild. DnN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted February 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 (edited) Read the first post "carbohydrate and the working" dog the simplefied science is in there lol. Dog feed manufactures didn't invent biochemistry these processes are older than multicelled life. Comparing the nutritional needs of a gundog and a lurcher is a little like a marathon runner to a 100m runner of course they are different. A sprinter is going to have a greater reliance on glucose than a dog that works at a slower pace and so there diet needs to match their needs. No you are wrong......the difference is in the different form of the dog not in a different metabolism. You keep writing about glucose do your research on glycogen not glucose. Glycogen is the form that glucose is stored in lol now how do I hold that egg lol. please read the post rather than reading what you think is there. I suggest different nutritional needs adjusted to role. I dont agree with all your points, I may be wrong, not sure what to make of it though. Your saying that carbs are so important in a dogs diet.... you say that over thousands of years we would have fed dogs scraps, which would mainly consist of carbs... i dont really agree with that, as dogs were initially used for hunting meat, and this remained the primary purpose of them for thousands of years, and i belive they would have been fed on their natural food of meat and bone, probably the trimmings, heads etc? Are you saying that our modern dogs digestive systems have developed a need for carbs due to being fed them for many years? If so I think your wrong, our dogs nutritional needs are no different from that of a wolf in the wild, and you dont see wolves going out of their way to get carbs into their diets. Just some opinions of mine.... As you may have guessed, my dogs eat a natural diet... the kind of stuff they would choose if they were feeding themselves in the wild. DnN no if you read the post i say that wolves have these abilities and passed them on to dogs also that dogs can manage without carbs in their diet. I go on to show that carbs are probably useful i the modern dogs diet much as a cavemans diet woud not be the best fot a modern human athlete. In hunter gatherer societis there aren't any "trimmings" and most dogs are village curs more used to cleaning the village of waste rather than modern hunting companions outside of a few types ie basenji and even these get very little animal protein. What a dog mightlike to eat as with a child may not be what is best and a little hippyfiedfor my style. To any one else please read the origanol posts before replying/posting. If you feel there is an error please quote the sentance that you feel is wrong and I will try to answwer I as everone else make errors . ( edit You can tell I'd had a few prior to this post lol.) Edited February 2, 2009 by sandymere Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTS 0 Posted February 1, 2009 Report Share Posted February 1, 2009 Glycogen is the form that glucose is stored in lol now how do I hold that egg lol. please read the post rather than reading what you think is there. I suggest different nutritional needs adjusted to role. So why keep writing about glucose. There is really no need to suggest different food for different work, it's a myth mainly put out by the kibble manufactures to entice people to buy their kibble. As an example there is no need to feed a puppy different food from an adult it's a myth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Glycogen is the form that glucose is stored in lol now how do I hold that egg lol. please read the post rather than reading what you think is there. I suggest different nutritional needs adjusted to role. So why keep writing about glucose. There is really no need to suggest different food for different work, it's a myth mainly put out by the kibble manufactures to entice people to buy their kibble. As an example there is no need to feed a puppy different food from an adult it's a myth. Lordy glycogen is stored glucose bit like frozen meat is still meat. Please quote your sources re a single diet being OK for all dogs and why do you keep brining kibble into it? I promote a balenced diet not complete feeds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTS 0 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Glycogen is the form that glucose is stored in lol now how do I hold that egg lol. please read the post rather than reading what you think is there. I suggest different nutritional needs adjusted to role. So why keep writing about glucose. There is really no need to suggest different food for different work, it's a myth mainly put out by the kibble manufactures to entice people to buy their kibble. As an example there is no need to feed a puppy different food from an adult it's a myth. Lordy glycogen is stored glucose bit like frozen meat is still meat. Please quote your sources re a single diet being OK for all dogs and why do you keep brining kibble into it? I promote a balenced diet not complete feeds. I asked you for your sources first Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Lordy please sensible replys this is a discussion not school yard tit for tat. You are entitled to your views and i suggest that you start a post based on them ie puppies don't need special treatment as per their nutrition and all dogs should be fed the same diet irespective of lifestyle as these seem to be your veiws. There are a great variety of veiws on this forum and I'm sure you will get lots of support. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTS 0 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Lordy please sensible replys this is a discussion not school yard tit for tat. You are entitled to your views and i suggest that you start a post based on them ie puppies don't need special treatment as per their nutrition and all dogs should be fed the same diet irespective of lifestyle as these seem to be your veiws. There are a great variety of veiws on this forum and I'm sure you will get lots of support. We are all entitled to our views...but I am serious what are you original sources Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dogs-n-natives 1,182 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Read the first post "carbohydrate and the working" dog the simplefied science is in there lol. Dog feed manufactures didn't invent biochemistry these processes are older than multicelled life. Comparing the nutritional needs of a gundog and a lurcher is a little like a marathon runner to a 100m runner of course they are different. A sprinter is going to have a greater reliance on glucose than a dog that works at a slower pace and so there diet needs to match their needs. No you are wrong......the difference is in the different form of the dog not in a different metabolism. You keep writing about glucose do your research on glycogen not glucose. Glycogen is the form that glucose is stored in lol now how do I hold that egg lol. please read the post rather than reading what you think is there. I suggest different nutritional needs adjusted to role. I dont agree with all your points, I may be wrong, not sure what to make of it though. Your saying that carbs are so important in a dogs diet.... you say that over thousands of years we would have fed dogs scraps, which would mainly consist of carbs... i dont really agree with that, as dogs were initially used for hunting meat, and this remained the primary purpose of them for thousands of years, and i belive they would have been fed on their natural food of meat and bone, probably the trimmings, heads etc? Are you saying that our modern dogs digestive systems have developed a need for carbs due to being fed them for many years? If so I think your wrong, our dogs nutritional needs are no different from that of a wolf in the wild, and you dont see wolves going out of their way to get carbs into their diets. Just some opinions of mine.... As you may have guessed, my dogs eat a natural diet... the kind of stuff they would choose if they were feeding themselves in the wild. DnN no if you read the post i say that wolves have these abilities and passed them on to dogs also that dogs can manage without carbs in their diet. I go on to show that carbs are probably useful i the modern dogs diet much as a cavemans diet woud not be the best fot a modern human athlete. In hunter gatherer societis there aren't any "trimmings" and most dogs are village curs more used to cleaning the village of waste rather than modern hunting companions outside of a few types ie basenji and even these get very little animal protein. What a dog mightlike to eat as with a child may not be what is best and a little hippyfiedfor my style. To any one else please read the origanol posts before replying/posting. If you feel there is an error please quote the sentance that you feel is wrong and I will try to answwer I as everone else make errors . ( edit You can tell I'd had a few prior to this post lol.) Fair play mate... like I say Im no expert, just fishing for useful info! ...........so if I add daily carbs to my dogs diet, what improvements should I see? As I feel my workers can be in pretty much peak condition on the rations they already recieve. Cheers DnN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted February 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 Fair play mate... like I say Im no expert, just fishing for useful info! ...........so if I add daily carbs to my dogs diet, what improvements should I see? As I feel my workers can be in pretty much peak condition on the rations they already recieve. Cheers DnN no problem It will depend on what your dogs do, the first post describes some research indertaken that found glucose reserves were not fully replaced in 24 hours without suppliments and the second looks at the process of converting fats etc into glucose and it being less efficient than glucose direct from carbs. As muscles use glucose as the energy source for high speed work then being low will result in a greater dependence on fat burning. In human terms it's hitting the wall in a marathon the point that the body runs out of glucose and tranferes to the slow speed fats energy resulting in a reduction in output. Dogs are better at this than humans but still need glucose to run a their best efficiency. So giving appropriate carbs will help to keep the stores topped up efficiently and reduce the chance of early burn out if running a dog two days in a row under sprint type conditions. So depending on the work you may see no changes or an increase in energy towards the end of a hard session. Eating carbs is natural for wolves, the dogs ancesters, many would have depending in their enviroment and today those living in one of the harshest areas, artic wolves, still do. In the spring they depend heavily on artic hare leverets untill early summer when they have grown enought to be uncatchtable when they eat lemmings. Now a small leveret or lemming is eaten whole and for augements sake a lemming will contain a total of 100 calories in the form of fat, muscle, bones, hair, stomach contents etc. Lemmings hold a fair amount of part digested carbs in their stomaches so there can be 20 or more calories available. If a wolf couldn't utilise these carbs 10 lemmings would only equal a maximum of 800 cals whereas on that does digest them gets 1000 cals from the same meal which will give a strong advantage in survival terms. In truth this is all a little academic as the biochemistry goes way back beyond mammals to the extent that gaining energy without oxygen, anaerobicly, probable started when there was very little oxygen on the earth as plants had not evolved to produce it, so way way back to the first life on earth. Now recently there has been a movement for people to start eating a caveman/natural diet ie no cereals but they have taken a step back and admitted that this diet is not suitable for athletes as it does not meet their dietry requiements for glucose through the energy inefficient 2 stage conversion process. Cheers s ps MTS get a book on biochemistry lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MTS 0 Posted February 3, 2009 Report Share Posted February 3, 2009 ps MTS get a book on biochemistry lol. Hi s Would you be so kind as to suggest one to me ....that is dog specific? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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