Carbohydrate part II.

[sandymere 8,263]

Carbohydrate part II.

The cereal debate.

 

Over the last 20'000 or so years, in all probability, man would have unknowingly bred dogs that do well on a relatively high carbohydrate diet. This idea is based on the premise that carbohydrates being the lowest value food in most societies are the most likely of all to be spared for feeding dogs. Therefore dogs that prospered on a high carb diet would have had better survival and so breeding potential. This was not a matter of evolving new abilities but rather the utilization of one already in place. Wolves, the excepted ancestor of modern dogs, have the ability to digest and utilize carbs and it’s this ability that that has been passed on to our pet dogs. Recently there has been an upsurge in new fashionable diets that seem to discount this useful ability and decry the use of any form of cereal. A dogs ability to convert fats etc into glucose (Gluconeogenesis formation of glucose from fats or proteins) is oft quoted as proof that dogs don’t need to eat carbs, using the theory that what the don’t need they shouldn’t have. If we were to look at the processes of Gluconeogenesis etc we will find that we can interchange the science between dogs and humans and so by this thinking say humans likewise don’t need carbohydrates in their diet. Personally I feel we are better to look beyond what we can be do without and rather we should see what benefits are gained from what we can do with.

 

The biological systems of digestion and energy production are older than either species and allowed man and his familiar, the dog, to dominate the earth. The ability to utilize a great variety of lifestyles and feeding opportunities allowed these two species to prosper in a great variety of habitats from tundra to desert. The remnants of their ‘wild’ ancestors still exist though only in the harshest areas, such as the Bushmen or San in the Kalahari, a few Inuit in the artic or wolves clinging to existence in the few pockets of remaining wilderness, all places that modern man and dogs didn’t really want. In my opinion just as we shouldn’t expect modern man to follow an Inuit diet because it is 'natural' neither should we limit our dogs to a diet based on, an interpretation of, what an isolated population of wolves eats today. Wolves, as with humans, had populations spread over a large part of the earth covering a great variety of habits. To base our diets on a few examples of wild groups would exclude the great variety of food sources and diets that were available to the great majority of ours and their ancestors living across the rest of the world.

 

Balance in dietary terms is not about exclusion but rather inclusion. To this must be added the lifestyle changes from those of their early ancestors as explored in Carbohydrate in the Working Canine diet. In exertional terms our working dogs are often expected to recover far quicker than nature intended. On a low carb diet Gluconeogenesis is he only way glucose for immediate use and for replenishment of stores can be produced. Gluconeogenesis needs a double process, lipid/protein digestion and then conversion, before the energy is near readiness for utilization and this can result in depleted stores unless there is an extended recovery period. The brain, eyes, red blood cells and to a large extent the heart use glucose and the muscles begin/increase glucose usage when contracting at speed i.e. sprinting, though arguably lactate will be used in some circumstances. If the stores are depleted then these areas are likely to be compromised which for a working dog may well reduce performance and increase strain on the body. Bearing this in mind to restrict a working/racing dog to a very low carbohydrate diet, i.e. exclusion of any cereals just a few raw vegetables, seems to hold little merit though it is one often advocated.

 

In conclusion science if often used to validate an individuals point of view but it needs to be born in mind that even if the science is correct if out of context it doesn’t prove anything. The example of Gluconeogenesis being used to prove dogs and so by the same theory humans, shouldn’t have, rather than can live without, eating carbs or another I read recently, carrots are high in sugar, are examples of misinformation. It’s not that they are wrong but incorrectly used that can lead to science misleading rather than helping us. I’m sure that these examples were not meant to mislead rather that those quoting them misunderstood the information themselves. So next time someone starts spouting science, especially me, remember any information scientific or otherwise is only as good as the way it is used.

 

Good Hunting sandymere.

[threbb 0]

I feed my dogs on around % flesh. I do that for a few reasons.It is cheaply available to me.Dogs much prefer it to meal if given the choice and familiar with both.The dogs do very well on it and produce far less poo.

 

They still have vegtables and soaked meal with rich gravy so its not all meat but feeding all flesh is nothing new as any huntsman will tell you.Many hound packs have or still do live on flesh alone and do well and recover well.

 

You cant get away from flesh being the best chosen feed stuff for a dog because it will naturally thrive better with plenty of flesh in the diet.

 

Most people feed complete because they are lazy and its easy.If you make a meal for your dog and put in whole ingredients like meal veg meat etc you can vary it according to the way the dog looks and connect better with the dog too.

[MTS 0]

Hi Sandymere

Just wondering mate where did you get that info from. Can you quote the source please?

[sandymere 8,263]

"Just wondering mate where did you get that info from. Can you quote the source please?" (MTS)

 

The science is just basic biochemistry going back a long way, Hans Buchner and Eduard Buchner in 1897, and as such to be found in any good reference book. It's based on stuff I learnt some years ago so I'm afraid it's not linked directly on any single piece of work. I would be happy pm some stuff if wanted but fair warning it's a little boring.

 

"Most people feed complete because they are lazy and its easy.If you make a meal for your dog and put in whole ingredients like meal veg meat etc you can vary it according to the way the dog looks and connect better with the dog too." (Threbb)

 

I agree whatever you feed your dog it needs to be tailored to meet their individual needs but this can be done in a variety of ways what is more important is getting the balence of protein, fats and carbs right rather than the form they are given in.

[spiderpig 39]

what dous this all mean in laymans terms? i.e should i go get some cocopops for my dog or stick to weetabix

:piggy:

[MTS 0]

"Just wondering mate where did you get that info from. Can you quote the source please?" (MTS)

 

The science is just basic biochemistry going back a long way, Hans Buchner and Eduard Buchner in 1897, and as such to be found in any good reference book. It's based on stuff I learnt some years ago so I'm afraid it's not linked directly on any single piece of work. I would be happy pm some stuff if wanted but fair warning it's a little boring.

 

Hi Sandymere

What I mean is did you write the passage yourself?

 

or did you lift it from somewhere?

[sandymere 8,263]

what dous this all mean in laymans terms? i.e should i go get some cocopops for my dog or stick to weetabix

:piggy:

 

in laymens terms adding carbs in whatever sensible form ie dog biscuits/meal, oats, rice, pasta etc or already added as part of a complete dried type feed is probably helpful as part of a balenced diet.

 

 

"Just wondering mate where did you get that info from. Can you quote the source please?" (MTS)

 

The science is just basic biochemistry going back a long way, Hans Buchner and Eduard Buchner in 1897, and as such to be found in any good reference book. It's based on stuff I learnt some years ago so I'm afraid it's not linked directly on any single piece of work. I would be happy pm some stuff if wanted but fair warning it's a little boring.

 

Hi Sandymere

What I mean is did you write the passage yourself?

 

or did you lift it from somewhere?

 

My own work as was the previouse post on Carbohydrate and working dogs and the one I did on rhabdomyolysis.

Cheers s

[MTS 0]

what dous this all mean in laymans terms? i.e should i go get some cocopops for my dog or stick to weetabix

:piggy:

 

in laymens terms adding carbs in whatever sensible form ie dog biscuits/meal, oats, rice, pasta etc or already added as part of a complete dried type feed is probably helpful as part of a balenced diet.

 

 

"Just wondering mate where did you get that info from. Can you quote the source please?" (MTS)

 

The science is just basic biochemistry going back a long way, Hans Buchner and Eduard Buchner in 1897, and as such to be found in any good reference book. It's based on stuff I learnt some years ago so I'm afraid it's not linked directly on any single piece of work. I would be happy pm some stuff if wanted but fair warning it's a little boring.

 

Hi Sandymere

What I mean is did you write the passage yourself?

 

or did you lift it from somewhere?

 

My own work as was the previouse post on Carbohydrate and working dogs and the one I did on rhabdomyolysis.

Cheers s

 

Hi Sandymere

Thanks for that have you read

 

Raw Meaty Bones by Tom Lonsdale,

The Wolf's Natural Diet, A Feeding Guide For Your Dog. by Mogans Eliasen?

Edited January 27, 2009 by MTS

[sandymere 8,263]

I've read a number of books and articles on the natural diet/BARF idea but find thay are based on conjecture rather than research.

[MTS 0]

I've read a number of books and articles on the natural diet/BARF idea but find thay are based on conjecture rather than research.

 

I don't see it like that......... I would not say it is conjecture but anocdotal . My own research on raw has been done in the environment of in my case working gundogs and I can tell you that raw feeding is far better for my dogs than any of the kibbles I tried before moving on to raw, and I tried most of the well known brands.

 

If people tell you differently they usually have a vested interest in selling kibble.

 

Still each to their own.

[blacktabs 3]

Agreat read sandymere science isnt half baffling ive found you cant beat your own eyes and hands for finding condition

Weve always fed flesh and carbs the muscle seems to get firmer when using carbs when we fed flesh only the coat,urine and general condition wasnt as good yis.

[sandymere 8,263]

I've read a number of books and articles on the natural diet/BARF idea but find thay are based on conjecture rather than research.

 

I don't see it like that......... I would not say it is conjecture but anocdotal . My own research on raw has been done in the environment of in my case working gundogs and I can tell you that raw feeding is far better for my dogs than any of the kibbles I tried before moving on to raw, and I tried most of the well known brands.

 

If people tell you differently they usually have a vested interest in selling kibble.

 

Still each to their own.

 

Gundogs are a different case from sprint type dogs as they will spend less time sprinting, so less in the glucose burning area, outside of this dogs burn fat so there may well be less need for carbs in the diet. But even for these non sprint type dogs there is good science to suggest that a percentage of carbs could have a positive effect. Changing fat into glucose is very energy inefficient and a little slow in comparison to the more direct carb / glucose system. I've certainly not got anything against raw, feed it myself a couple of times a week, but my concern is many of these diets exclude a lot of importent ingredients. Worth bearing in mind that, outside of educational works, books are written to make money not for scientific reasons. If there is a scientific breakthrough then a work is sent to a professional journal where if found valid it will be published and become part of scientific knowledge and from there books will be written. The science I've used has undergone this process. When I see some valid research to negate a balenced diet, including appropriate carbs, i'll certainly include it.

PS I don't work for or have any interest in sales of any dog related products lol.

cheers sandy.

[MTS 0]

Gundogs are a different case from sprint type dogs as they will spend less time sprinting, so less in the glucose burning area, outside of this dogs burn fat so there may well be less need for carbs in the diet. But even for these non sprint type dogs there is good science to suggest that a percentage of carbs could have a positive effect. Changing fat into glucose is very energy inefficient and a little slow in comparison to the more direct carb / glucose system. I've certainly not got anything against raw, feed it myself a couple of times a week, but my concern is many of these diets exclude a lot of importent ingredients. Worth bearing in mind that, outside of educational works, books are written to make money not for scientific reasons. If there is a scientific breakthrough then a work is sent to a professional journal where if found valid it will be published and become part of scientific knowledge and from there books will be written. The science I've used has undergone this process. When I see some valid research to negate a balenced diet, including appropriate carbs, i'll certainly include it.

PS I don't work for or have any interest in sales of any dog related products lol.

cheers sandy.

Hi Sandymere

I am pleased to hear you have no vested interests in selling kibble,

 

Again I very doubt if you will see any scientific research against feeding carbs to dogs because any research that had been done in dog nutrition has been funded by the kibble manufacturers (AFAIK). I may stand corrected LOL

Edited January 29, 2009 by MTS

[Tiny 7 1,694]

What sort of diet are your dog/dog's on mate?

What feed do you feed them?

Atb T 7

[sandymere 8,263]

What sort of diet are your dog/dog's on mate?

What feed do you feed them?

Atb T 7

 

I use a dried food base to which i add fresh meat/fat and bones depending on season ie butchers waste, rabbits etc + cooked vegtables, the odd egg any table scraps are given as well. The dried feed gives a baseline that can then be individualised to any adult given dogs requirements. In simple terms increase protien while building up, increase fat in colder weather or if lots of stamina type work, increase carbs for lots of sprinting while balencing the others out so to not over/underfeed. Used to use a lot of fish and tripe but the supply dried up but giving a good variety is a good way of covering ll the micro and macro nutrients.

 

MTS the research is mainly older than dog food lol.