This is my thoughts on undershot jaws

[pickaxe 23]

Surely evolution is the greatest judge of all, if the undershot jaw was an advantage i'm sure wild canines would have evolved with them. Mother nature knows more than we do and she obviously doesn't think its a good idea.

 

if it was left to mother nature we'd still be hunting with wolves, there would be no terriers,hounds or lurcher's

a terrier wouldn't stay to ground and a lurcher wouldn't make run after run, no wild animal would put its self in to much danger hunting as do the dogs we keep and breed, in lines of terriers undershot is there always seems to of been there, to try and breed it out would need a lot of out crossing.. lots of out crossing is to the determent of working ability IMO

 

I was meaning conformation wise not temperament

Terrier 12" -15" and under 25 pound and the Wolf weight and size can vary greatly worldwide, though both tend to increase proportionally with higher latitudes. Generally speaking, height varies from 24 to 35 inches at the shoulder, and weight can range anywhere from 55-143 pounds, making wolves the largest among all wild canids ...just a sleight conformation difference :whistle: :whistle:

 

Show me an airedale or a russian black thats below 15" and less than 25lb

 

i should of said earth dog, airedales and russian black, didn't evolve they where breed , like i said domestic Dogs have every little to do with mother nature, so your mother nuture analogy doesn't stand up

[PBurns 9]

Sounds like someone has a dog with undershot dogs and wants to breed them and will rationalize that outcome, no matter what is said. Nothing to be done under such a situation -- people will do what they will. Keep practicing the sales pitch One is born every minute.

 

As to the little matter of history, the greyhound did not originate in England, and neither did the use of dogs to catch cattle and pigs. This is basic history and can be seen on the walls of Rome and the tombs of the pharaoh's. By the same token, no one using catch dogs today (or then) considers a shot jaw a positive thing. The idea that the english bulldog is a catch dog is laughable. You have seen an english bulldog, right? They cannot catch a frisbee, and will not chase a ball. If this is your model of success, I shudder. That said, it's still a free world.

 

I am not sure why greyhounds were brought up -- is someone breeding greyhounds with shot jaws now? Nothing would faze me anymore.

 

Patrick

[fellman 116]

Sounds like someone has a dog with undershot dogs and wants to breed them and will rationalize that outcome, no matter what is said. Nothing to be done under such a situation -- people will do what they will. Keep practicing the sales pitch One is born every minute.

 

As to the little matter of history, the greyhound did not originate in England, and neither did the use of dogs to catch cattle and pigs. This is basic history and can be seen on the walls of Rome and the tombs of the pharaoh's. By the same token, no one using catch dogs today (or then) considers a shot jaw a positive thing. The idea that the english bulldog is a catch dog is laughable. You have seen an english bulldog, right? They cannot catch a frisbee, and will not chase a ball. If this is your model of success, I shudder. That said, it's still a free world.

 

I am not sure why greyhounds were brought up -- is someone breeding greyhounds with shot jaws now? Nothing would faze me anymore.

 

Patrick

p burns what you know about terriers i could write on the back of a very small stamp with a very large marker!!!!!!!!!!!

stick to making web sites filled with bullshit ..............its what you do best .............knobba .........

if people want to breed off good workign stock thats been proven thats their call ........all they have to do is watch what they breed off ......and be carefull with further breeding (ie avoid compounding the fault) its certainly got feck all to do with any one else

now as you lot over the water are so fond of saying ..............BUTT OUT !

YIS FELLMAN

[PBurns 9]

Deep thinking there fellman. Thanks for sharing! I take it you are all for shot jaws then? Should we be celebrating the undershot and overshot jaws of fellman's terriers?!

 

As to the notion that people can breed what they want, that is exactly what I said. There is no original thinking on your part there

 

It's a sad day when you cannot find a working terrier that does not have a decent jaw though. Why would one would buy such an animal when obvious alternatives are rare? Or is the question posed from the seller's side and not the buyers? In that case, the seller breeds what he has (shot or otherwise) because it is the cheapest and most expedient thing to do. Same as it's always been done from the seller's side. Caveat emptor.

 

 

Patrick

[Guest buster]

Sounds like someone has a dog with undershot dogs and wants to breed them and will rationalize that outcome, no matter what is said. Nothing to be done under such a situation -- people will do what they will. Keep practicing the sales pitch One is born every minute.

 

As to the little matter of history, the greyhound did not originate in England, and neither did the use of dogs to catch cattle and pigs. This is basic history and can be seen on the walls of Rome and the tombs of the pharaoh's. By the same token, no one using catch dogs today (or then) considers a shot jaw a positive thing. The idea that the english bulldog is a catch dog is laughable. You have seen an english bulldog, right? They cannot catch a frisbee, and will not chase a ball. If this is your model of success, I shudder. That said, it's still a free world.

 

I am not sure why greyhounds were brought up -- is someone breeding greyhounds with shot jaws now? Nothing would faze me anymore.

 

Patrick

p burns what you know about terriers i could write on the back of a very small stamp with a very large marker!!!!!!!!!!!

stick to making web sites filled with bullshit ..............its what you do best .............knobba .........

yis fellman

That was worded well [bANNED TEXT] Just about what i was going to state, he doesnt listen to what he reads.

All i stated was most of the best blood in all them dogs what i mentioned blood is bred in england and ireland.

If the american thought that little of the english bulldog why did they make a bigger version on it called the american bulldog. :whistle:

[PBurns 9]

I have to say Buster, we have fools over here, same as in the UK. The American bulldog was cobbed up by a puppy peddler a few years back and is mostly a pitbull crossed with a boxer. No one uses them for anything but walking on a lead. I would certainly not put that dog up to a success story, unless you were looking at the balance books of the peddler. We also have a hairless terriers too I would think they would be popular at a convention of Chinese cooks

 

There is no end of idiocy in any country, is there?

 

Good luck with your terriers, and fellman too with his progeny of dogs. It is a free country -- and the results can be seen everywhere. Off to doctor a dog before going off to work. Perhaps if the jaw was undershot, it would not have been bit? I will give that a thought.

 

Patrick

[Guest buster]

I have to say Buster, we have fools over here, same as in the UK. The American bulldog was cobbed up by a puppy peddler a few years back and is mostly a pitbull crossed with a boxer. No one uses them for anything but walking on a lead. I would certainly not put that dog up to a success story, unless you were looking at the balance books of the peddler. We also have a hairless terriers too I would think they would be popular at a convention of Chinese cooks

 

There is no end of idiocy in any country, is there?

 

Good luck with your terriers, and fellman too with his progeny of dogs. It is a free country -- and the results can be seen everywhere. Off to doctor a dog before going off to work. Perhaps if the jaw was undershot, it would not have been bit? I will give that a thought.

 

Patrick

 

Go and buy that book what i had advised you to and have a good hard look and read what is in the pitbull.

The pitbull is named pitbull cause they fougt in a pit with rats and other dogs.

[pickaxe 23]

Deep thinking there fellman. Thanks for sharing! I take it you are all for shot jaws then? Should we be celebrating the undershot and overshot jaws of fellman's terriers?!

 

As to the notion that people can breed what they want, that is exactly what I said. There is no original thinking on your part there

 

It's a sad day when you cannot find a working terrier that does not have a decent jaw though. Why would one would buy such an animal when obvious alternatives are rare? Or is the question posed from the seller's side and not the buyers? In that case, the seller breeds what he has (shot or otherwise) because it is the cheapest and most expedient thing to do. Same as it's always been done from the seller's side. Caveat emptor.

 

 

Patrick

 

Patrick , over the years I've produced maybe 10% undershot i neither breed for it or away from it its a miner thing in a bigger picture,and as long as the dog /bitch work and work well I'll breed from them ... now I'm sure you know your stuff in your field but your field is digging up rodents, mine isn't , and its not sales pitch i have e.mails and Pm's all the time and most will tell you I'm not selling ,

now you go off and a write dissertation on why terriers should have a scissor bite and stick it on your web site, or even find a US site that puts up with your inane dribble

[Cupid Stunt 18]

"The American bulldog was cobbed up by a puppy peddler a few years back and is mostly a pitbull crossed with a boxer. No one uses them for anything but walking on a lead

 

 

P Burns, over the last few years i've seen 99% of folk c*nt you off on these boards & now after that statement i know they were dead right in their assessment

[Limb 31]

Where not talking major deformaties here. My personal opinion is that ''CORRECT BITE'' is a KC expression. If you look at whats happened to most of what they've had a hand in it's knackered. Best x Best regardless of minor faults.

[Guest buster]

I have read right through this thread & I have my own thoughts on it .My first ever terrier had an overshot jaw & he was the grab & hold on type he had a very strong grip but I know that was nothing to do with him having a"soo mooth " as we call it up here ....... if I had the choice of two earth dogs

both were similar workers one had an over shot jaw & one had a perfect jaw & I was thinking about breeding with it I would go for the good jaw everytime ...but correct me if im wrong buster but are you saying that you preffer an over shot jaw by claiming it is stronger grip & are you actually striveing for it in your breeding ?

 

No im not trying to keep the undershot in my dogs im just stating it does happen alot in dog breeding, but it doesnt matter if the dog is undershot or overshot, i have even seen a dog what was deaf and was a very good worker.

When breeding dogs you are going to get minor faults with them, especially in close breeding and line breeding if the breeder has said they havent come across this they are telling porkys it wasnt me what blew the argument out of proportion.

All i was stating was my thoughts on undershot and minor faults in dog breeding.

 

"The American bulldog was cobbed up by a puppy peddler a few years back and is mostly a pitbull crossed with a boxer. No one uses them for anything but walking on a lead

 

 

P Burns, over the last few years i've seen 99% of folk c*nt you off on these boards & now after that statement i know they were dead right in their assessment

Very good comment [bANNED TEXT]

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Having read this from cover to cover I cant help feeling that some of you dont know what overshot /undershot is .THESE 2 ARE JAW DEFORMITIES.Just so you know -overshot jaw means the top jaw protrudes over the lower jaw in varying degrees.

Undershot jaw -this means the top jaw is inside the lower jaw in varying degrees

To put up with either of these shows one of two things -the breeder has poor standards of confirmation .

The local gene pool is saturated with this deformity and the breeder is loathe to look elsewhere.

A terrier can be of good conformation as well as working ability.

UNDER SHOT DOGS SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM IT IS A DEFORMITY.

[pickaxe 23]

Having read this from cover to cover I cant help feeling that some of you dont know what overshot /undershot is .THESE 2 ARE JAW DEFORMITIES.Just so you know -overshot jaw means the top jaw protrudes over the lower jaw in varying degrees.

Undershot jaw -this means the top jaw is inside the lower jaw in varying degrees

To put up with either of these shows one of two things -the breeder has poor standards of confirmation .

The local gene pool is saturated with this deformity and the breeder is loathe to look elsewhere.

A terrier can be of good conformation as well as working ability.

UNDER SHOT DOGS SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM IT IS A DEFORMITY.

 

Foxdropper , you keep a nuttall terrier, pm me some of the names in its ped, as you may never want to breed from it :whistle:

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Having read this from cover to cover I cant help feeling that some of you dont know what overshot /undershot is .THESE 2 ARE JAW DEFORMITIES.Just so you know -overshot jaw means the top jaw protrudes over the lower jaw in varying degrees.

Undershot jaw -this means the top jaw is inside the lower jaw in varying degrees

To put up with either of these shows one of two things -the breeder has poor standards of confirmation .

The local gene pool is saturated with this deformity and the breeder is loathe to look elsewhere.

A terrier can be of good conformation as well as working ability.

UNDER SHOT DOGS SHOULD NOT BE BRED FROM IT IS A DEFORMITY.

 

Foxdropper , you keep a nuttall terrier, pm me some of the names in its ped, as you may never want to breed from it :whistle:

 

Cheers pickaxe-Im well aware of the short comings of most strains.The Nuttal bitch has more than a jaw problem at the moment .She has picked up a strain of soil born t.b which got into a rat bite. The vet tells me that even if this is curable she will always be a carrier .Shit happens.

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

So long as the problem is further back than 5 generations ,then the terriermen wanting to breed new stock has a good chance of keeping away from this .5 gen being how long recessive genes will not show.