This is my thoughts on undershot jaws

[Guest buster]

I am a owner of patterdale terriers, i have owned them for 15 years, bred them for 9 years. I am trying to breed my own lines and when you trying to you will get undershot jaw. I have seen jaws undershot,overshot and perfect.

My opinion undershot holds tighter and holds longer, and in my breeding they also throw back dulclaws but they get taken off,do people think that is a issue as well :realmad:

Going to the english bulldog now why do you think they bred with undershot jaws as well as the boxer, for the information for the people what slag undershot them dogs were bred for baiting and holding,same as the ultimate predators pirarma fish they are undershot arnt they if am not wrong

So for the people that slag them off think to thereselves before they open there mouths go back and show there perfect dogs :realmad:

Pickaxe i think your dogs look smashing and they look keen,good workers

 

To all the breeders that are trying to get there own lines, they do come across this with there close breeding.

[rob reynolds uk 3]

a fish is a fish and a dog is a dog so i cant see why you compaire the both ,i dont like to see dogs with under shot jaws and would never buy one as its a fault in the dog so i would never breed from one if it had this fault ..as for working i cant see why it should make much differance in the working,i just dont like to see it in a dog ,i dont know if its just me but i think most would not like it in there dogs if they had the choice ,as for grip i think its a loads of bollocks it being better with a under shot jaw ,i may be wrong ,but i dont think i am , if it was ever too meet the right fox it would soon lose its teeth i know.

[Guest buster]

a fish is a fish and a dog is a dog so i cant see why you compaire the both ,i dont like to see dogs with under shot jaws and would never buy one as its a fault in the dog so i would never breed from one if it had this fault ..as for working i cant see why it should make much differance in the working,i just dont like to see it in a dog ,i dont know if its just me but i think most would not like it in there dogs if they had the choice ,as for grip i think its a loads of bollocks it being better with a under shot jaw ,i may be wrong ,but i dont think i , if it was ever too meet the right fox it would soon lose its teeth i know.

 

I wasnt comparing fishes to dogs i was just facing facts. answer this question? Why are british bulldogs and boxers bred to have undershot jaws then when they are a holding dog, they have bin bred for a hell of a long time havent they

[PBurns 9]

Actually, no, neither the British bulldog nor the boxer have been bred for a hell of a long time (almost no breed has been) and neither breed is a working dog or has been related to a working dog in the last 170 years or so (i.e. since the creation of these breeds as we know them today).

 

Both the British bulldog and the boxer were entirely created by the show ring crowd -- they essentially have nothing to do with the working catch dogs dogs of the late 18th and early 19th Century. Both breeds have pushed-in faces (the boxer is better, but still too short in the jaw) making it difficult for either dog to breathe while holding on -- a situation antithetical to actual work and a morpholical structure never found in true working catch dogs.

 

 

 

 

Working catch dogs (we still have them in the USA) generally have scissor or level bites and are American pitbull crosses with perhaps a little greyhound or catahoula in them. They look very much like the old catch dogs of the 18th Century (they are perhaps a little faster, as we have more open country).

 

See >> http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm for a short article (with a few pics) on what the show ring has done to catch dogs and its relationship to working terriers.

 

I agree with Rob -- I would not breed an undershot shot jaw and I would not buy such a dog knowing I was going to look at an obvious generic defect every day of my life for the next 10-15 years. There are too many well-bred working dogs out there to mess with that. If you already own a working dog with a mildly undershot jaw, go ahead and work it, and work it often, but it's a bit like an ugly girl -- even if she can "do the job," you may not want to marry it and have it looking at you for the rest of your life. Surely we all deserve better?

 

Apologies for the analogy, but there it is.

 

 

Patrick

[Guest grubygrafter]

I am a owner of patterdale terriers, i have owned them for 15 years, bred them for 9 years. I am trying to breed my own lines and when you trying to you will get undershot jaw. I have seen jaws undershot,overshot and perfect.

My opinion undershot holds tighter and holds longer, and in my breeding they also throw back dulclaws but they get taken off,do people think that is a issue as well :realmad:

Going to the english bulldog now why do you think they bred with undershot jaws as well as the boxer, for the information for the people what slag undershot them dogs were bred for baiting and holding,same as the ultimate predators pirarma fish they are undershot arnt they if am not wrong

So for the people that slag them off think to thereselves before they open there mouths go back and show there perfect dogs :realmad:

Pickaxe i think your dogs look smashing and they look keen,good workers

 

To all the breeders that are trying to get there own lines, they do come across this with there close breeding.

 

like i said buster a recessive fault is a b*****d to remove from a strain. i have seen breeders lose more than half there litter haveing to cull the badly undershot pups it can be removed from a strain if you do test mateings . if this is in a line. in a litter you will get a %age of pups showing tha gene and a%age carrying it but not showing it

these will breed pups that are undershot from two dogs that are perfect. to look at.

 

there will also be a % of pups that are free from the gene the only way to find out what pups are free from the gene as far as i know is to breed them to a dog that is in itself undershot. if any pup in the resulting litter is undershot then both dogs must have the gene one recessive and dominant. you can mask or hide the problem by outcrossing to suitable stock.

[Guest buster]

Actually, no, neither the British bulldog nor the boxer have been bred for a hell of a long time (almost no breed has been) and neither breed is a working dog or has been related to a working dog in the last 170 years or so (i.e. since the creation of these breeds as we know them today).

 

Both the British bulldog and the boxer were entirely created by the show ring crowd -- they essentially have nothing to do with the working catch dogs dogs of the late 18th and early 19th Century. Both breeds have pushed-in faces (the boxer is better, but still too short in the jaw) making it difficult for either dog to breathe while holding on -- a situation antithetical to actual work and a morpholical structure never found in true working catch dogs.

 

 

 

 

Working catch dogs (we still have them in the USA) generally have scissor or level bites and are American pitbull crosses with perhaps a little greyhound or catahoula in them. They look very much like the old catch dogs of the 18th Century (they are perhaps a little faster, as we have more open country).

 

See >> http://www.terrierman.com/rosettestoruin.htm for a short article (with a few pics) on what the show ring has done to catch dogs and its relationship to working terriers.

 

I agree with Rob -- I would not breed an undershot shot jaw and I would not buy such a dog knowing I was going to look at an obvious generic defect every day of my life for the next 10-15 years. There are too many well-bred working dogs out there to mess with that. If you already own a working dog with a mildly undershot jaw, go ahead and work it, and work it often, but it's a bit like an ugly girl -- even if she can "do the job," you may not want to marry it and have it looking at you for the rest of your life. Surely we all deserve better?

 

Apologies for the analogy, but there it is.

 

 

Patrick

 

Done some researh of my own found this out, go to www.bulldoginformation.com

click on link, then click onto bulldog breeds.

It states thats why they bred undershot jaws in the bulldogs, bites harder, holds longer.

Most of the american grab dogs have boxer blood in same as dogo argentino so boxer blood is still work isnt it. THANKS FOR NOW GOOD HUNTING

[PBurns 9]

Sorry Buster, you need to go somewhere other than a Pet site for information on catch dogs. The british bull dog is nothing more than a non-working family pet that is so bow legged it can barely move (I cannot walk slowly enough to walk a british bulldog). 100% of them are caesarian births, which means the breed would be extinct within 10 years without veterinary care. These dogs have terrible bites and can barely breathe because their faces are so short. British bulldogs fart teribly due to the fact that they are achondroplastic dwarves and their bowels are not formed properly. Many of the dogs have their tails removed surgically after their show ring careers, to lessen the chance of infection that comes from a tightly wound pig tail. Bottom line: If I were British, I would sue for defamation of character if this dog were named after my country. In fact, this dog has nothing to do with working dogs and never has been. It could not catch a cow or a pig (if it was tied to one, it would be dragged) and the dog cannot raise its head to grab. It is a sad thing, and the perfect example of where the well-trod path of Kennel Club destruction and myth leads. If a veterninrian wanting a bigger house were to built a dog for an animal rights activists opposed to hunting and working dogs, the british bull dog would be the outcome.

 

I am in the US and if you think people are using boxers for catch dogs over here, you are simply mistaken. The American catch dog, like its Australian counterpart, is not a fancy animal and is generally an American pit bull with a bit of greyhound crossed in one or two generations back. When the dogs are working cattle in thick brush, instead of pigs, they may be pure catahoula leopard dog. As a general rule, the dogs have a scissor bite and anything else is considered defective.

 

A great deal of nonsense is written about bull dogs, generally by pet people and the very young who have a very romantic idea of what a catch dog is, and what it does. In the UK, catch dogs have not been legal since 1835, and your stock was completely and totally corrupted by the rise of the Kennel Club in 1859. In other parts of the world, catch dogs are still used, however, but no one on this planet is using a British bulldog (the hoots would be loud) or a boxer (the wrong jaw structure).

 

You sound interested in history, but instead of going to pet web sites, I would recommend "The Animal Estate: The English and Other Creatures in the Victorian Era" by Harriet Ritivo. You can buy it used at www.abebooks.com The book is well-written and well researched (Ritvo teaches at Harvard and the book was printed by Harvard University press), and though not specifically about bull dogs it does have an excellent and interesting history of dogs that will ground you in the true history of working animals in the UK and elsewhere.

 

Instead of looking for a rationale to support bad bites, try looking at pictures of the dogs being used today for catch work in the U.S. and Australia. The work has not changed, and the dog has not changed either. Remember, there were almost no set "dog breeds" prior to about 1840, and the catch dog of earlier years was a varied lot (as it it is today). That said, the catch dog in use today, like the catch dog of old ( and the ultimate catch dog --the wolf) has a scissor bite because that is what works in the real world. If an overshot or undershot jaw was better, we would see it in wolves, lions, hyenas (and in true working dogs at work today), but we do not because it is a weaker bite.

 

 

Patrick

 

 

[Guest buster]

Most of the catch dog as got boxer in them and english bred and irish bred dogs,so where does all the good blood come from even the pitbull.

Go and and buy a book called " pitbull and is master" and that tells you where they originate from most of them come from england and ireland same as the greyhound in america that comes from england and ireland doesnt it. If you stay on this website and go onto boar and pig hunting alot of the breeding is english bull terrier, irish wolfhound, english masstif abit of greyhound A staghound originate from england the deerhound, and by the way the english bulldog i was comparing was that the one that the old type before the pedigree and kc register club got hold of them and f***ed them up, same as the patterdale and jack russells, lakeland, plummer and many more where do they originate from [bANNED TEXT].

I got alot of the catch dogs information off this website so are they lying [bANNED TEXT]

[Guest buster]

Yes from both of them because if your dog has a perfect jaw it doesnt mean it hasnt got undershot jaw in its blood or overshot.

It doesnt mean you have to get rid of them because you will come across them if you try and breed your own lines.

To all the terrier/lurcher and other breeders out there if they are truefull they will have come across it and always will,cause it is the inter breeding and close line breeding.

[Guest ROOSTER]

its the strength of the lower jaw not the under or overshot mouth that gives the dog a good grip, the massater muscle is much more powerful in bull breeds than anyother dog.

[pickaxe 23]

Surely evolution is the greatest judge of all, if the undershot jaw was an advantage i'm sure wild canines would have evolved with them. Mother nature knows more than we do and she obviously doesn't think its a good idea.

 

if it was left to mother nature we'd still be hunting with wolves, there would be no terriers,hounds or lurcher's

a terrier wouldn't stay to ground and a lurcher wouldn't make run after run, no wild animal would put its self in to much danger hunting as do the dogs we keep and breed, in lines of terriers undershot is there always seems to of been there, to try and breed it out would need a lot of out crossing.. lots of out crossing is to the determent of working ability IMO

[Guest Stevie D]

If you want to breed dogs which go down and simply grab and hold on to their quarry buster, then I'm sure you'll get what you want.

 

I'm pretty sure that Pickaxe used his undershot stock for much different reasons.

 

If you are happy with what you breed and the way they work then forget about undershot, overshot, good jackets, bad jackets etc, etc, etc.

 

The lads & lasses who breed working terriers of "good" conformation are no better or worse than those who just breed grafter to grafter. There is no shame in breeding workers for good conformation.

 

Just as there is no shame in breeding undershot stock because it's the best working stock available to you.

 

Each to their own.

 

Stevie

[Guest buster]

If you want to breed dogs which go down and simply grab and hold on to their quarry buster, then I'm sure you'll get what you want.

 

I'm pretty sure that Pickaxe used his undershot stock for much different reasons.

 

If you are happy with what you breed and the way they work then forget about undershot, overshot, good jackets, bad jackets etc, etc, etc.

 

The lads & lasses who breed working terriers of "good" conformation are no better or worse than those who just breed grafter to grafter. There is no shame in breeding workers for good conformation.

 

Just as there is no shame in breeding undershot stock because it's the best working stock available to you.

 

Each to their own.

 

Stevie

 

Not all my dogs have undershot but i would use them if i needed to, to keep my own lines, when you have good dogs to your own opinion you dont breed away from them cause if they are undershot or overshot, you try and keep that good working and gainness no matter what the dog is like.

My dogs throw back,back dull claws you dont stop breeding cause of that

I was stating a point it doesnt matter what the dog looks like its the working ability to me.

I would take anyone out with my dogs cause that is how confident i am with my dogs. :whistle: Im not interested in showing them because it is all fixed anyway. Its not the money either i would give them away to the right people.

Thanks for your opinion [bANNED TEXT]

[Guest Stevie D]

Allright Buster, that's what I meant, if you like what your dogs do then breed them as you see fit. However if someone doesn't want to breed from undershot stock, it doesn't mean they're show breeders who are in it for the cash. It might just be that they want to breed terriers which are relatively free from genetic faults, be it undershot, back dewclaws or whatever.

All the best

Stevie

[pickaxe 23]

Surely evolution is the greatest judge of all, if the undershot jaw was an advantage i'm sure wild canines would have evolved with them. Mother nature knows more than we do and she obviously doesn't think its a good idea.

 

if it was left to mother nature we'd still be hunting with wolves, there would be no terriers,hounds or lurcher's

a terrier wouldn't stay to ground and a lurcher wouldn't make run after run, no wild animal would put its self in to much danger hunting as do the dogs we keep and breed, in lines of terriers undershot is there always seems to of been there, to try and breed it out would need a lot of out crossing.. lots of out crossing is to the determent of working ability IMO

 

I was meaning conformation wise not temperament

Terrier 12" -15" and under 25 pound and the Wolf weight and size can vary greatly worldwide, though both tend to increase proportionally with higher latitudes. Generally speaking, height varies from 24 to 35 inches at the shoulder, and weight can range anywhere from 55-143 pounds, making wolves the largest among all wild canids ...just a sleight conformation difference :whistle: :whistle: