socks 32,253 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 It takes me a long time right now as I am still playing with different vegs, and how to cut/shred them ... last night I used a hand grater to mince a head of cabage (harder than it sounds!) and 4 carrots, I don't have any electrical way to do it. Added to that lambsmilk replacer mixed into a couple pints of water, and a quart of uncooked chunks beef fat straight from the butchers. That split between the 4 dogs went something like this ... They all ate the chunks of fat, Blister (70 lbs) ate all the liquid and most of the veg, Tor (75 lbs) just sucked the fluid out only, leaving about a pint of veg, Slag (60 lbs) and Tia (40 lbs) both downed it ALL without anything left at the bottom. I think I'll cut back everyone 25% as it seemed like a LOT to digest in one meal, and maybe increase the liquid a bit. But what to do with Tor, the one who wouldn't eat the veg? Should I try differents vegs with her, maybe she doesn't LIKE cabbage and carrots? you have 3 options really 1 try giving the veg to her whole and see if she will enjoy chewing it down and eating it that way ... 2 try a different veg there are plenty that you can use but in my experience once you get a dog that isnt keen on eating veg they generally wont eat any veg .... 3 get your self a cheap mincer and run the veg and meat through it so that the veg is integrated with the meat and then the dog HAS to eat it ............ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Socks my old mate. Carrots high in sugers? they, as all vegtables, are made up of carbohydrate and carbohydrate is made of suger in more or less complex forms. I wouldn't expect carrots to be so easly digested as to cause a rush of sugers to the extent of being a problem but would love to be educated. I eagerly await your reply! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Socks my old mate. Carrots high in sugers? they, as all vegtables, are made up of carbohydrate and carbohydrate is made of suger in more or less complex forms. I wouldn't expect carrots to be so easly digested as to cause a rush of sugers to the extent of being a problem but would love to be educated. I eagerly await your reply! i was talking in relation to other veg ... yes they have positives like a high count of beta carotine etc but if you compare them to say a green veg like broccoly which has 0 grams of sugars per 100 grams carrots have 5 grams of sugar per 100 grams ........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Socks my old mate. Carrots high in sugers? they, as all vegtables, are made up of carbohydrate and carbohydrate is made of suger in more or less complex forms. I wouldn't expect carrots to be so easly digested as to cause a rush of sugers to the extent of being a problem but would love to be educated. I eagerly await your reply! i was talking in relation to other veg ... yes they have positives like a high count of beta carotine etc but if you compare them to say a green veg like broccoly which has 0 grams of sugars per 100 grams carrots have 5 grams of sugar per 100 grams ........ green veggies like broccoly are made of carbs(suger) the same as carrots. So how can broccoly have no sugers. Maybe you mean available sugers? If so the sugers in carrots are complex enough to be slow release so no problems. The varience in veggies is often overstated as the majority if freshly frozen or very fresh carry a multitude of vits, minerals, protein, fat and fibre so in most cases one is as good as another. It's a little like 'super foods' just hype to sell to the unwary. Variety of colour may have some impact on vits but remember that vits are micro nutrients so onle very small amount nec. When they tested greyhound times they found that high vit E caused slower times. The whole antioxadent hype is falling down, as it in the main, a theory that is now being tested and not doing well. A bit like lactic acid, oxidation is likely part of the process of internal respiration rather than the BAD BOY. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kye 77 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Once again, thanks for the informative replys guys,.. Heres ANOTHER question though!..lol. What is the protein content of fat from beef?...i went to pick up flesh yesterday, and what with deer season being over, there was only a couple of deer left over, but they had just done a Cow, and there was LOTS of fat...i grabbed the lot!..lol...can you feed just fats?...is there enough protein in the fat, to use that instead of flesh?...i would think that they NEED flesh as well as fat, but just curious if you can use the fats as a main protein source?...and will that have bad/good affects on the dogs?... Many thanks,.. Kye.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Beef even if lean will on average give about 60% calories from fat and 40% protein. Fats are about twice as calorific as protien so a pound of fat is equal to about 2 pound pure protien(meat) or carbs. fat on it's own will give energy stores a restock but you need to give protein as well as fat to rebuild muscle cells etc Protein is made of amino acids which are the building blocks of lean tissue. When eaten they are broken down and rebuilt into new tissue,bit like reusing bricks to build a house from an old factory. Some can be gained from vegtable sources but a few are perhaps best sourced from meat, raw or cooked, these are essential amino acids and can only be rebuilt from ingesting essential amino acids. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kye 77 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Thanks SM,...so the fat is fine, but it does need the flesh for the protein source?...is that right? Kye.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sandymere 8,263 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Thanks SM,...so the fat is fine, but it does need the flesh for the protein source?...is that right? Kye.. Yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiff 36 Posted January 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) now keep in mind that the dogs are looking and performing well right now, so whatever I'm doing "seems" to be working, but it has been mostly guesswork and listening to Jay (sometimes) that I've learned from, I really knew nothing about feeding flesh until this past year. And I am sure I have some things all wrong, or I'm doing things without really knowing if they are doing any good or not. okay my questions of the day ... 1.) When "just" roading and a few hours lamping (10-20 miles/day roughly) I had been feeding venison morning/night day 1, venison morning & fats/veg night day 2, venison morning/night day 3, repeat ... was that ratio okay? And now that we are hitting the full season, is this ratio still okay, or should I be feeding all 3 for both meals daily? I will also start incorporating the rice after a night out, Socks you said a handful, is that 1/2 cup? More? I'm not feeding evenings until after they are in for the night, although they get a small (1/3 portion) fat meal 4 hours before going out. 2.) What percentage of protein/fats/veg SHOULD they eat in an average day, assuming increase of (presumably) fats when the weather/work is harder? I am totally guessing with this as I've not officialy weighed anything, I just eyeball and use certain bowls for certain dogs, and it has been working out fine so far. Example: If they get 1 pound flesh 2X day in their flesh meals, and then 3/4 pound fats, 1/2 pound veg in their fats/veg meal? Do those types of percentages look right? Thanks Socks and Sandymere, I do appreciate the guidance! Edited January 8, 2009 by His Wife Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 sandemere i am not getting into one of our big drawn out food debates ... do some research on the variouse veg nutritional information and you will see what i mean about carrots .... mmmm creatine building blocks protein ... you are starting to sound like me are you at last coming over to my way of thinking regarding the energy values from fats rather than from carbs ??? all i need to do now is to convince you that raw is best ........ jay you cannot feed a dog on fat alone mate you will visibly be able to see it losing weight as the days go on ........... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 now keep in mind that the dogs are looking and performing well right now, so whatever I'm doing "seems" to be working, but it has been mostly guesswork and listening to Jay (sometimes) that I've learned from, I really knew nothing about feeding flesh until this past year. And I am sure I have some things all wrong, or I'm doing things without really knowing if they are doing any good or not. okay my questions of the day ... 1.) When "just" roading and a few hours lamping (10-20 miles/day roughly) I had been feeding venison morning/night day 1, venison morning & fats/veg night day 2, venison morning/night day 3, repeat ... was that ratio okay? And now that we are hitting the full season, is this ratio still okay, or should I be feeding all 3 for both meals daily? I will also start incorporating the rice after a night out, Socks you said a handful, is that 1/2 cup? More? I'm not feeding evenings until after they are in for the night, although they get a small (1/3 portion) fat meal 4 hours before going out. 2.) What percentage of protein/fats/veg SHOULD they eat in an average day, assuming increase of (presumably) fats when the weather/work is harder? I am totally guessing with this as I've not officialy weighed anything, I just eyeball and use certain bowls for certain dogs, and it has been working out fine so far. Example: If they get 1 pound flesh 2X day in their flesh meals, and then 3/4 pound fats, 1/2 pound veg in their fats/veg meal? Do those types of percentages look right? Thanks Socks and Sandymere, I do appreciate the guidance! for the weight of your dogs and the amount of work they are doing i would be feeding 1 1/2 to 2lbs lbs of beef a day plus 1 pound of mixed veg so in essence you could feed a third of the meat in the morning and then feed the other 2 thirds and the veg at night along with half a cup of boiled rice and if you wanted to be really into the feeding add a slice of wholemeal bread for ruffage .... now every dog is different and some will need more/less depending on the dog and work given only you can see that so you will have to adjust accordingly ......... as for the ratio then normally you would be looking at around 75% meat to 25% fat for a normal day then when the workload is increased and the dogs are working hard regularly you would be looking at around 65% meat to 35% fats ........ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kye 77 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Cheers Socks, that IS what i thought, i was just wanting to make sure of it...especially as i got about 50lbs of beef fat in the shed/freezer!..lol. Tiff actaully got me a Band/Meat saw for Xmass, and it has a mincer on the side!!!...so, maybe we should just spend a day mixing flesh/fat/veg into small portion sized bags?...then keep the bones for them to just chew on, and get what they want outta them? Socks, how about bread, instead of rice mate?...we can get about 200 loafs of bred for 4 quid...its mixed, whole-grain, brown, white etc...would that be of any use in the diet of a hard working dog? Cheers guys... Jay.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kye 77 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 You must have posted as i did mate, just seen the info on the bread, thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socks 32,253 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 (edited) You must have posted as i did mate, just seen the info on the bread, thank you. i mince all my dogs food up mate and put it in weighed bags then freeze it ... it makes it much easyer ... then yep as you say just give them the bones through the day ... hepls to keep them occupied aswell ... if you have a mincer then as i said on the earlyer post run the veg through it and mix it in with the meat for the fussy eater then he will HAVE to eat it as it will be to finely minced for him to eat the meat and leave the veg ........... Edited January 8, 2009 by socks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kye 77 Posted January 8, 2009 Report Share Posted January 8, 2009 Good stuff mate,... Dont you just HATE picky eaters!..lol..Tiffs bitch (lovingly called 'Slag'..lol.) that bitch will eat ANYTHING!...and i do mean anything!...the only dog ive ever seen, kill a SKUNK and start eating it!!!...crazy! There was a Cows head that i should have picked up from the meat place!...i didnt even think about that...it had loads of meat on it, plus the tounge and everything...im sure the dogs would of loved that!... Im thinking that i should of loaded up on deer meat, while the season was going!... Having said that, the farmer across the lane keeps cattle, and he does have shitty stockmanship,...maybe he wont miss 1500lb of beef running around!!..lol. Thanks for the info guys, all i can say is our dogs have never looked/acted as good as they have when they are on flesh...feck that kibble shit, its just no good!... Jay.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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