Stayers or Quitters?

[bedlingtonman 44]

I've chatted with a few of the real old school[they'd love that lol ]one of the best conversations, i had was with J.Park, and his saying of , "you can't breed rats from mice" sums it up ...

bloodlines are every thing,

scattered bred show crap is every where, and as each year goes on, less and less are breed purely for work,

 

the main problem is the definition of worker!!!

 

 

nice sumery [bANNED TEXT]

[Kye 77]

I have had a terrier spew after four seasons work...no idea how old he was, but he was over six, thats for sure...i wouldnt class myself as a terrierman, just a guy that likes digging quarry with terriers...this dog NEVER got a beating, only ever lost one tooth, and was basicly a bayer...i have NEVER worked a dog sore in my life..ever...like i said, im no terrierman, but i do have common sense.

He just wouldnt enter one day, and that was that...it was more my Ex's pet than anything, other wise i would have culled him...imo, because of his breeding, he just decided enough was enough, and why fecking bother!..lol.

Blood is very important in terriers...my digging partner has a black bitch over here that is as well bred as you can get...generation after generation of good stayers, and of a mixer/baying type...first fox she seen she demolished...i mean wrecked it...imo, you couldnt of made it more humane to the fox!..lol.

Its all blood lines...every know and then you will get a worker from un-known breeding, and every so often you get a GREAT dog that you have no idea how its bred!...

Kye,..

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

Bloodlines are everything and one generation of good workers isnt enough there must be a history of working generations JMO.

 

The trouble lies in the very fact that one persons world beater is anothers waste of kennel space.A group of lads into a bit of hunting may bolt 10 foxes a year and dig 5 and believe they have decent dogs.When it comes to breeding a litter ,these lads will rarely look outside thier local gene pool for a sire.The terriers they breed are very much a gamble to buy but are advertised as 100 % earth dogs?.Personally I would not buy a terrier from anyone that I had not seen both parents work and to a standard I like .A second rate bitch CAN be improved by better stock over her but this is the long way round.As the lads have said ,mate only the best to the best.A good rule of thumb is to only use a dog which is capable of killing foxes to ground.

[Guest JOEB]

By keeping the bloodlines pure (well known good dogs to well known good dogs) will the gene pool end up to closley related?

Would you for instance, turn a blind eye to genetic defects if the working line of the dog was 100%.

Would you cull defective dogs or at least make sure that they could not be bred from?

 

By the way I found the defenition of a worker stuff interesting, hadnt considered that before.

 

This is all good reading, it would certainly help me make a more informed choice if I ever got another terrier.

Keep it coming lads

JOEB

[pickaxe 23]

By keeping the bloodlines pure (well known good dogs to well known good dogs) will the gene pool end up to closley related?

Would you for instance, turn a blind eye to genetic defects if the working line of the dog was 100%.

Would you cull defective dogs or at least make sure that they could not be bred from?

 

By the way I found the defenition of a worker stuff interesting, hadnt considered that before.

 

This is all good reading, it would certainly help me make a more informed choice if I ever got another terrier.

Keep it coming lads

JOEB

 

most genetic defects are killed off, pretty dam fast, works to hard for genetic defects!!!

but things like undershot is a genetic defects in some peoples eyes, not to me

one of the main problems with line/inbreeding is loss of size, weak teeth and you have to breed very tight ,

then you need new blood ..and your problems now start ,when you try to find the new blood

the trick is to get the new blood on the go long before you need it that way you can work it see how

it goes ,and if good enough, breed the hybred stuff back into the line slowly JMO

[kris 0]

Put the best to the best and hope for the best but nothing is guaranteed, you can't make a bad dog good but you can make a good dog bad. The well bred ones cost as much as the s**t ones so dont take the chance,,,

[Guest grubygrafter]

good thread . i can see where everyone is comming from on this but it really is down to personal preference.

what is the definition of what is a good worker

. every terrierman i have spoke to has a different opinion. and they all have there own ways of breeding them. there is one thing for sure and that is that working terriermen have a strong pride in what they work and breed . the problem i see is that the most important thing is the lines you keep (generations of working dogs) is the key to producing consistent stock. yet people will take the risk of outcrossing. rather than useing the poorer workers from consistent lines. it is a fact that these dogs should be just as likely to throw as the top of the range so to speak.

from two brothers. one a top class worker and the other just an average worker. the average worker has the genetics to throw the same as the top class one.

i'm not saying breed from inferior stock always breed from the best AVAILABLE. working lines the stength in good lines is just that they are unbroken or undiluted. so by staying within those lines your preserving them.

it is my opinion that some terriermen are to severe with there culls thus reducing there own quality gene pools this is of course just my opinion. cs good hunting to you whatever you do

[Guest potter]

the main problem is the definition of worker!!!

 

Too fcuking true....so many people breed from terriers that they think are the danglies, when in reality the dogs are no more than culls themselves, walking into a pipe and killing a fox 3 times a year dont make a worker, going to ground getting smashed and walking off the the job after an hour dont make a worker, bayers 5-6 foot off the game dont make a worker...the list is endless, its a pity some folk dont look long and hard at what they have before they breed....JMHO...........Carreg

hey the really sad thing is that there is a genetic truth in [bANNED TEXT] your saying thats sort of evaded terrier work 4 years. there really is only 1 way 2 judge a terrier an that is no nonsense years of earthwork dog or bitch doin the job no excuses no constructed digs,no allowances 4 bitches bein important. narrow down your working gene pool and then your ratio of working pups improves. then yes its important and beneficial to breed from releted lines.

[Guest diesel]

well this a decent thread!

 

well a very well known terrierman said to me the other day that hed rather have a dog that just wasnt up to scratch with all its breeding known! then have a good dog of unkown breeding.. this made a lot sense to me when he explained!

 

right a bit of of a story about breeding... a man i know very well goes out a few weeks ago with a 5 year old bitch that he bread 5-6 years ago this dog has never seen owt but rats till this time!! this dog is out of some top breeding that the lad has since almost lost... they goes to a very easy looking 2 holer! on a flat field... drops this untried bitch in... 4 hours and 9 foot later they reach the bitch and her qaurry she worked as if she had worked all her life!! (nose to nose) this just goes to show you about the right breeding!! this could be an extremly rare situation!!

 

diesel

[Guest george26]

[bANNED TEXT] about the the running dog named FETTLE i think was its name that was bred out of a non worker and she turned out to be an exelent dog so in my opinion it doesnt matter about the parents.

 

 

1) The lad was talking about terriers.

 

2) There are always going to be tales of wonder dogs from dodgy parents or re-homing centres, but how many of them REALLY hold water and who in their right minds would take that gamble anyway.

 

3) It's opinions like yours that are spewing out show shite by the bucketful and raking in big money into the bargain. The only pedigree worth talking about is a working pedigree, breeding from tried and tested proven parents, time and time again. I'm not going to get into an argument over this as everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I stand by what I believe :-

 

BREED FROM SHITE AND YOU CAN EXPECT SHITE - DON'T MOAN ABOUT IT WHEN IT HAPPENS!!!

I used it as an example mate

Noticed you just joined George26......No relation to Paul26 ?[bANNED TEXT] ARE TALKING ABOUT NIKEY

[Wilky 0]

the main problem is the definition of worker!!!

 

Too fcuking true....so many people breed from terriers that they think are the danglies, when in reality the dogs are no more than culls themselves, walking into a pipe and killing a fox 3 times a year dont make a worker, going to ground getting smashed and walking off the the job after an hour dont make a worker, bayers 5-6 foot off the game dont make a worker...the list is endless, its a pity some folk dont look long and hard at what they have before they breed....JMHO...........Carreg

 

 

Couldn't agree with you more Carreg, true workers are true workers, but I also believe people should be looking long and hard at the parents and grandparents, then with a bit of luck they won't have to look so hard at the dogs they are working.

[CumbrianJack 2]

Very interesting topic of discussion.

 

I was glad to see JOEB mentioned genetic defaults, how do you know if your dog has a hereditary genetic default unless that is you test for it?

Do you all eye test your dogs to make sure they are not carrying any eye problems this could infcat make a dog thats worked well all its life just suddenly not want to work as it cannot bloody see whats its doing! Its only about £32 a dog to have it done well worth it IMO.

Also do you patella test & check for perthes in your dogs, this is also another reason a dog can stop working.

 

You have to think about why a dog would stop working after its been a worker for you for such a long time, health issues can be the main factor & if your not testing your breeding stock for diseases that cannot be seen with the naked eye then you could end up culling a line of workers because of some genetic fluke which could be tested for & worked around so that you still keep the line but cull out the affected dogs.

Whats the point in putting years of effort into a trusted line of workers to have them fail at 4-5 years old because they are blind as bats or crippled with perthes. Outcrossing is not a way of saying your line will stay disease free or genetically sound because you could just end up with someone elses problems combined into your own & you'd never know until a few years have passed.

[Guest JOEB]

Some great replys hear

 

So are we saying that if after a few seasons good work, a dog may walk off the job......but in theory the bloodline could still be sound?

 

Will this cause wastage in an otherwise sound bloodline, further reducing the amount of working blood that is around?

So by culling such dogs, are we actually making life more difficult for ourselfs?

 

This is all an education for me, thanks

JOEB

[phil wright 2]

a few questions for you lads that do a lot with your terriers

 

what does a terrier have to have done before it can be called a stayer?

 

what i mean is how many foxes has it to work and for how long before it can get this title.also how many hours to ground at a time shows staying ability? 2 hours? 3 hours????

 

can a terrier have done enough short digs to be called a worker but not necessarily proved to be a stayer.?

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

a few questions for you lads that do a lot with your terriers

 

what does a terrier have to have done before it can be called a stayer?

 

what i mean is how many foxes has it to work and for how long before it can get this title.also how many hours to ground at a time shows staying ability? 2 hours? 3 hours????

 

can a terrier have done enough short digs to be called a worker but not necessarily proved to be a stayer.?

 

IMHO a dog is a stayer if it stays until dug to -any depth any length of time.Some shallow places can take a while to dig around us and the opposite also applies -some sand holes of 7foot can be reached in under an hour .The main thing with any terrier is that it does whats asked of it ,no messing ,no popping out for a breather .Also to be a purist ,only one hole should need to be dug .Many times I have seen lads put a dog in then its on with the box after a couple of yips .A hole is started only to hear the fight move elsewhere.This is down to impatients mostly and not a shit dog.Let the dog settle for a while in one place before digging.I llike to beat the ground with the flat of the shovel to see if the quarry is stop ended or not .One of the worst faults in a digging dog is that of going at the quarry hard whilst your digging and then climbing out the hole wagging its tale when you break through.This is very hard to rectify and embarrassing to say the least.

Needless to say that particular terrier will be kept for rats only and not bred from.