Breeding and Testing

[heart of wales 19]

Everyone has their own opinion and are entitlted to it however,in my opinion no matter what the breeding as someone has already stated you can never guarantee what the pup will turn out like but it does lesen the odds.

Difficult to go into details on here what is expected of a lurcher given the current laws,personally I dont run a dog on rabbits until they are Twelve Months,their first season would be gradually built up on the lamp giving them plenty of cofidence as they go,during its first season it would be with me as mine has been ferreting, long netting,lamping two sometimes three nights a week.Second season same however now starting to retrieve shot hares three already one in the day two at night if I shoot a fox and she retrieves that she is coming along nicely if she doesnt,will try her a few times but if not will be happy but would not breed from her.

[Guest night time my time]

what will you then do with the bitch that has failed after 2 years of training?do you carry on with a bitch that is only caperble of a percentage of the work you require or do you rehome to pet home and start from scatch agian, and hope that then 6/7 years down the line you have a bitch worth breeding from and that dog doesnt jack or fail to retrieve then your on to 10 years be your standards still hopeing to have a dog worth a litter with no garentees??

[Guest oldskool]

no expert but likely such a size differance could be why the litter didnt throw stright.

 

 

 

 

 

 

yea could have been...

 

 

just a thought, but if a person is successful and breeds a first class litter of 3/4's then what happens the poor old half cross??? does he get forgot about or rehomed only for some lad to think he could do better with a 3/4 cross and then decide to breed another litter??? where as the poor old half cross gets humped and dumped yet again

[Guest night time my time]

no expert but likely such a size differance could be why the litter didnt throw stright.

 

 

 

 

 

 

yea could have been...

 

 

just a thought, but if a person is successful and breeds a first class litter of 3/4's then what happens the poor old half cross??? does he get forgot about or rehomed only for some lad to think he could do better with a 3/4 cross and then decide to breed another litter??? where as the poor old half cross gets humped and dumped yet again :-D

i can only go by experiance of breeding collie xs and my half x is now 12 her daughter 3,(not her 1st litter) but i can honestly say i dont know how im going to replace the old half x,there isnt a job she cant turn a paw to,its like shes spoke human language all her life,iv retired her a dozon times then when one of my younger dogs has been injoured, shes come back as sub and made herself indespencable everytime,out mooching with a friend yesterday and shes bushing with the terriers with all the drive of a spanial,marking etc,before anyone thinks about breeding the 3/4 they should give the half x a chance.you may find you have just the dog you need,meny times iv had new people out to lamp and i whistle her out,they see her and look at my funny,saying are you bringing that thing in a disbeleveing tone,?? watch and learn is all i have to say as she hops into the moter and calmly lays down among other dogs jumping around excited,,

[Bosun11 537]

First of all, please forgive me if I can't get my thoughts across in a soundbite kind of way...

 

I've been sat here wondering about specific breeding goals and the resultant testing of dogs in the pursuit of those said goals.

 

If, for arguments sake, you had the intention of breeding some 3/4 whippet 1/4 bulls as I did a few years ago, would you bother to test the first generation cross (half bull - half whippet) knowing that the actual purpose of the cross was one generation away?

 

Let's say you had a good bull and a good whippet (this could work equally as well for a collie and a greyhound or a bedlington and a whippet...but hopefully you get the point) and your intention was a decent 3/4 bred, how much work do you put into the resultant half cross?

 

It's widely accepted by the standards that most of my hunting mates hold dear, that a dog isn't worth breeding from until they have proved themselves, usually the 3rd or 4th season, so if your intention was a a 3/4 bred from good base stock in say January 2009, you would be waiting a while before your prospective mating took place. Say you had half cross pups on the ground today..... their first season might arguably be 2009 or even 2010 depending on the cross. That might mean you are looking at 2013/2014 to be sure that the the half crosses are worth breeding off. How many are prepared to wait this long?

 

Given the fact that the sole intention of the breeding was for 3/4 crosses, how many would have given the first generation light work, if anything, and bred from them when physically able to?

 

I'm not fishing here...I really am genuinely interested.

 

What if the half crosses never make the grade, what do you do then? Do you ignore this and breed anyway as your sole intention was the 3/4 cross?

 

Any thoughts/opinions most welcome

 

Some good answers to this very interesting post.

In Ted Walsh's L&L Dogs he talkes about breeding from scratch and it'd be a good man to follow that programme!

 

Ok Stabs, for what its worth heres my two penneth....

 

For me, the three main questions that'd have to be answered before the start would be...

 

1) Do I have the time and honesty to take this programme all the way?

 

2) Can I justify breeding that ammount of dogs soley to satisfy MY need for a 3/4 from MY stock?

 

3) Is my foundation stock THAT good to justify this undertaking and produce the/my ultimate dog (if their ain't nothing bad in the line, then nothing bad should come out in the pups 'eh)??

 

If there is any doubt about any of the above, don't bother!

 

Fantastic animals are being bred all over this ever decreasing world and for a fraction of the time, effort and money you could obtain the right animal.

 

So with all arguments of what type of cross out of the window, your talking about a Bull x for this post so i'll stick with them.

 

You've gone with the programme and got your half cross, as for testing it, then YES abso-fecking-lutley, BUT you must test it for what it is (a half x) and it's work must be thorough, i'd be looking for all the qualitys you are expecting from it's type and then some!

For the time scale I recon yours is about right or preferably longer and thats a big risk if your looking to the future, any mishap can occure and set you back or wreck everthing (it did with me!).

To me, giving an animal light work with the intention of breeding from it in the future is ridiculus, nothing is a guarantee, so everything should be tested. How would you feel, years down the line, after using your first x lightly and breeding from it early, you found your prized 3/4 lacking somehow. You'd kick yourself for not going the whole hog?

 

I would also have ensured its siblings go to trusted, honest and like-minded people, because if your litter choice is wrong or a mishap occures you know where that blood is, blood that you may well need in the future. Plus a far more rounded valuation on your potential future can be made by looking at all that litter.

 

Also, whenever i've listened to anyone who wants to breed lurchers (of any type) their main focus always seems to be a bit one-sided on the pastoral, terrier, bull or whatever cross they are looking for side. The right running dog is paramount to this undertaking, I've read both sides of the argument about this on earlier posts on this thred, and both are right, yes we won't find much more of a perfect canine specimen than the greyhound but perfectly sound most of 'em ain't!! Choose wisely here and its a massive plus. (Though why limit yourself to a purebred? There are a few excellent 'lines' of crossbred sighthounds that would probably fit the bill just as well, if not better!)

 

Though with all that said, WOW, how good would it be if you did breed your canine paragon?? And i'll bet you would have some fun with each and everyone of the generations.

 

Cheers

[Stabs 3]

Many thanks for that reply Bosun.

 

It would seem that we think alike in regards to this.

 

[Guest night time my time]

First of all, please forgive me if I can't get my thoughts across in a soundbite kind of way...

 

I've been sat here wondering about specific breeding goals and the resultant testing of dogs in the pursuit of those said goals.

 

If, for arguments sake, you had the intention of breeding some 3/4 whippet 1/4 bulls as I did a few years ago, would you bother to test the first generation cross (half bull - half whippet) knowing that the actual purpose of the cross was one generation away?

 

Let's say you had a good bull and a good whippet (this could work equally as well for a collie and a greyhound or a bedlington and a whippet...but hopefully you get the point) and your intention was a decent 3/4 bred, how much work do you put into the resultant half cross?

 

It's widely accepted by the standards that most of my hunting mates hold dear, that a dog isn't worth breeding from until they have proved themselves, usually the 3rd or 4th season, so if your intention was a a 3/4 bred from good base stock in say January 2009, you would be waiting a while before your prospective mating took place. Say you had half cross pups on the ground today..... their first season might arguably be 2009 or even 2010 depending on the cross. That might mean you are looking at 2013/2014 to be sure that the the half crosses are worth breeding off. How many are prepared to wait this long?

 

Given the fact that the sole intention of the breeding was for 3/4 crosses, how many would have given the first generation light work, if anything, and bred from them when physically able to?

 

I'm not fishing here...I really am genuinely interested.

 

What if the half crosses never make the grade, what do you do then? Do you ignore this and breed anyway as your sole intention was the 3/4 cross?

 

Any thoughts/opinions most welcome

 

Some good answers to this very interesting post.

In Ted Walsh's L&L Dogs he talkes about breeding from scratch and it'd be a good man to follow that programme!

 

Ok Stabs, for what its worth heres my two penneth....

 

For me, the three main questions that'd have to be answered before the start would be...

 

1) Do I have the time and honesty to take this programme all the way?

 

2) Can I justify breeding that ammount of dogs soley to satisfy MY need for a 3/4 from MY stock?

 

3) Is my foundation stock THAT good to justify this undertaking and produce the/my ultimate dog (if their ain't nothing bad in the line, then nothing bad should come out in the pups 'eh)??

 

If there is any doubt about any of the above, don't bother!

 

Fantastic animals are being bred all over this ever decreasing world and for a fraction of the time, effort and money you could obtain the right animal.

 

So with all arguments of what type of cross out of the window, your talking about a Bull x for this post so i'll stick with them.

 

You've gone with the programme and got your half cross, as for testing it, then YES abso-fecking-lutley, BUT you must test it for what it is (a half x) and it's work must be thorough, i'd be looking for all the qualitys you are expecting from it's type and then some!

For the time scale I recon yours is about right or preferably longer and thats a big risk if your looking to the future, any mishap can occure and set you back or wreck everthing (it did with me!).

To me, giving an animal light work with the intention of breeding from it in the future is ridiculus, nothing is a guarantee, so everything should be tested. How would you feel, years down the line, after using your first x lightly and breeding from it early, you found your prized 3/4 lacking somehow. You'd kick yourself for not going the whole hog?

 

I would also have ensured its siblings go to trusted, honest and like-minded people, because if your litter choice is wrong or a mishap occures you know where that blood is, blood that you may well need in the future. Plus a far more rounded valuation on your potential future can be made by looking at all that litter.

 

Also, whenever i've listened to anyone who wants to breed lurchers (of any type) their main focus always seems to be a bit one-sided on the pastoral, terrier, bull or whatever cross they are looking for side. The right running dog is paramount to this undertaking, I've read both sides of the argument about this on earlier posts on this thred, and both are right, yes we won't find much more of a perfect canine specimen than the greyhound but perfectly sound most of 'em ain't!! Choose wisely here and its a massive plus. (Though why limit yourself to a purebred? There are a few excellent 'lines' of crossbred sighthounds that would probably fit the bill just as well, if not better!)

 

Though with all that said, WOW, how good would it be if you did breed your canine paragon?? And i'll bet you would have some fun with each and everyone of the generations.

 

Cheers

Exerlent,as i said earlyer my line started after loosing a dog dear to me and finding it hard to replace him,took a long time and a few dogs past to pet homes im afraid, then i did happen on my old half x,to start with it was never my intention to breed a litter from her til i thought what happens if i loose her,?so i put her in pup to a pure grey dog and was lucky to produce a good stright litter, then gave me the idea to use her brother as stud to a grey bitch,(the merle gene poped up from the grandmother,no hancock) then to me breeding a good honest working lurcher became almost as intresting asworking them. aswell as haveing the security of good blood placed around trusted mates should i need to use it,i dont breed 100s of pups,im not planning a litter this year at all as i have a pup to bring on(of high percentage of herding blood) and dont believe you can get the full potental by bringing more than one youngster on at a time.as for going to all the hassal of breeding a line when its easy to go just buy a quality dog,its the only bit i have to disagree with,its not thet easy to find genuin quality dogs,one add here now. in the countrymans "deerhound x collie 23 ats???", il stick to my line and the dogs i know,they may not be world beaters but theres plenty that can hold there own and i dont know what id do if i didnt work and breed my dogs anyway,they've become probly the most inportant thing in my life outside of family and i love to learn more each day,

[Guest RAB.MCKAY]

(seriously reply)

 

first i will tell you wat i done .

i heard of a dog for sale 1/2 bull 1/2 grey hound bitch (100% you just haft to look at her) 7 year old.

 

i knew 3 people that owned the bitch, first 2 for more than 2 years each 3rd person bought her to breed 2nd cross 1/2 bull dogs.

i knew a lot that seen her out.

every report was da same (great all round honest game bitch) never let you down .

 

so i went out with the dog seen her lift couple of rabbits and a fox no problem

knew da beam jumpet any thing didnt stop for any thing fellas wer true to ther word.

the only fault i found with bitch was she lacket a bit of pace as you would expect from a 1/2 breed.

 

next i looket up grey hound stud dogs compaired race wins, places, lap times, distances, then went on to check breeding and winning siblings.

 

found a dog his name was alex revenge he was an open class winner diden mater wat distance this dog was capable of a winn in his blood line wer top hancho, head hancho,sand man and many more alli had to do was convince the man that owned the dog to give me a service for a fee of ( £ @00.00) pound.

 

waited on bitch breaking got her maited. sorted

 

9 weeks later bitch gave birth to 9 pups, 4 bitches, 5 dogs i kept 1 bitch 2 dogs sold rest of pups ( £ @00.00) each.

 

pups r now 6 months looken good and strong all this in just over a year .

 

no any grey hound wont do if your going to do it right.

 

i will now anser da question dont feed a dog for years just to see if it makes da grade for breeding, it takes years for a dog to mature then to learn its trade then perfect it.

 

GOOD LUCK !

[Guest it's all my land after 12]

what you breed depends on your personal needs/requirements, the 1st cross or 1/2 bred being the outset, this of course gives you hybrid vigor, in most cases you use the g/hound for speed and the other breed for the qualities you hope it will add to the offspring, as has been said already most reoccurring faults have already been eliminated, the whole point of "line breeding" (where you breed a line to one common ancestor) (i.e) a stud sire, or in breeding ( where you breed to common family members) is to bring any faults to the fore and remove them. thereby bettering your family of course this is a long term plan, but results will follow, you must just be prepared to be ruthless in your selection and cull to eliminate any faults that occur, as somebody has said faults can lay dormant for generations sometimes, more so in scatter-bred litters for example lurcher to lurcher (however good they are as workers) depending of course on the number of crosses contained in each lurcher parent, probably 4 crosses or more spells trouble and its time to put g/hound back in the pot to tidy it up, when you breed 3/4 crosses you expect to increase the speed of the pups but lose some of the other factor contained in the original mating (ie) if it were bull ..some of the gameness, if collie some of the brains and saluki some of the stamina this of course generally speaking, there will of course always be exceptions to the rule (one-offs / freaks) . so if you have ----the time, facilities, inclination and dedication----- line or inbreeding is the way forward, this is a proven fact in all livestock throughout history, but truthfully if it does what YOU want it to do then surely that's good enough. .... for most !

 

 

just spotted a great link on the dogs health and training page .....re genetics ........ inbreeding ,linebreeding and outcrossing etc..... very informative.

Edited January 13, 2009 by it's all my land after 12

[whin 463]

very true, its all mines ,when i bred my coli line got pics of all there family so new what pup i wanted and sold the rest , and i put a very good greyhound bitch through them and keptd the strongest type for me none were bad dogs but some beter and more harder than others ,for all game so ill go back to the line again even tho its a tiol to keep traveling for the [bANNED TEXT] stamp of dog who are good alrounders , as it takes a few seasons to see a well polished dog , best age for me for breeding a bitch is four and six if everything goes to plan , not two saw some saluk croses only starting to box hares and realy start working a hare at two properly and well sometimes timings a factor i would never bred of a dog i hadnt tested twos a bit young for me but every body to there own

[heart of wales 19]

Should my bitch fail on whatever she gets tested on next retreving a fox or deer,then that would be down to my failings in that I decided to start this dogs life by breeding her,I dont go through life thinking everything is perfect and if it is not dicarded it like a worn tool,she would then live out the rest of her life doing what she is very capable of currently.

I would not breed from her thinking I would cure this by breeding her to a dog capable of it.

[labsnlurchers 39]

(seriously reply)

 

first i will tell you wat i done .

i heard of a dog for sale 1/2 bull 1/2 grey hound bitch (100% you just haft to look at her) 7 year old.

 

i knew 3 people that owned the bitch, first 2 for more than 2 years each 3rd person bought her to breed 2nd cross 1/2 bull dogs.

i knew a lot that seen her out.

every report was da same (great all round honest game bitch) never let you down .

 

so i went out with the dog seen her lift couple of rabbits and a fox no problem

knew da beam jumpet any thing didnt stop for any thing fellas wer true to ther word.

the only fault i found with bitch was she lacket a bit of pace as you would expect from a 1/2 breed.

 

next i looket up grey hound stud dogs compaired race wins, places, lap times, distances, then went on to check breeding and winning siblings.

 

found a dog his name was alex revenge he was an open class winner diden mater wat distance this dog was capable of a winn in his blood line wer top hancho, head hancho,sand man and many more alli had to do was convince the man that owned the dog to give me a service for a fee of ( £ @00.00) pound.

 

waited on bitch breaking got her maited. sorted

 

9 weeks later bitch gave birth to 9 pups, 4 bitches, 5 dogs i kept 1 bitch 2 dogs sold rest of pups ( £ @00.00) each.

 

pups r now 6 months looken good and strong all this in just over a year .

 

no any grey hound wont do if your going to do it right.

 

i will now anser da question dont feed a dog for years just to see if it makes da grade for breeding, it takes years for a dog to mature then to learn its trade then perfect it.

 

GOOD LUCK !

 

Where is the bitch now? Seems a shame for such and honest game bitch to be passed round from pillar to post.

I think mot people who work dogs first and foremost do it as they enjoy seeing their dogs work and if the dog makes the grade further down the line then thats a bonus.

I have ever bought a dog or bitch just to breed from, in fact it never enters my mind when i have bought any of my dogs, i looked at the dogs ive bought and thought about them working, fitting in at our kennels, getting on with our livestock etc etc.

The trouble with buying a ready tested brood bitch is that you know about her working ability but NOTHING about her temprement in the kennel, with kids etc etc. I truely beleive you should know a dog inside out before you breed from it. jmho.

[Guest RAB.MCKAY]

(seriously reply)

 

first i will tell you wat i done .

i heard of a dog for sale 1/2 bull 1/2 grey hound bitch (100% you just haft to look at her) 7 year old.

 

i knew 3 people that owned the bitch, first 2 for more than 2 years each 3rd person bought her to breed 2nd cross 1/2 bull dogs.

i knew a lot that seen her out.

every report was da same (great all round honest game bitch) never let you down .

 

so i went out with the dog seen her lift couple of rabbits and a fox no problem

knew da beam jumpet any thing didnt stop for any thing fellas wer true to ther word.

the only fault i found with bitch was she lacket a bit of pace as you would expect from a 1/2 breed.

 

next i looket up grey hound stud dogs compaired race wins, places, lap times, distances, then went on to check breeding and winning siblings.

 

found a dog his name was alex revenge he was an open class winner diden mater wat distance this dog was capable of a winn in his blood line wer top hancho, head hancho,sand man and many more alli had to do was convince the man that owned the dog to give me a service for a fee of ( £ @00.00) pound.

 

waited on bitch breaking got her maited. sorted

 

9 weeks later bitch gave birth to 9 pups, 4 bitches, 5 dogs i kept 1 bitch 2 dogs sold rest of pups ( £ @00.00) each.

 

pups r now 6 months looken good and strong all this in just over a year .

 

no any grey hound wont do if your going to do it right.

 

i will now anser da question dont feed a dog for years just to see if it makes da grade for breeding, it takes years for a dog to mature then to learn its trade then perfect it.

 

GOOD LUCK !

 

Where is the bitch now? Seems a shame for such and honest game bitch to be passed round from pillar to post.

I think mot people who work dogs first and foremost do it as they enjoy seeing their dogs work and if the dog makes the grade further down the line then thats a bonus.

I have ever bought a dog or bitch just to breed from, in fact it never enters my mind when i have bought any of my dogs, i looked at the dogs ive bought and thought about them working, fitting in at our kennels, getting on with our livestock etc etc.

The trouble with buying a ready tested brood bitch is that you know about her working ability but NOTHING about her temprement in the kennel, with kids etc etc. I truely beleive you should know a dog inside out before you breed from it. jmho.