do dogs need carbohydrates?

[dogman89 0]

at the moment i have two dogs. a staffordshire bull terrier which is fed purely on meat and nothing else, not even biscuit treats.

i also have a lurcher which is fed on feedwell and get cooked meat and the stock poured over it. it gets fed this because it stays at my mates house and he feeds my dogs sister this and they both live together. i would love to feed my lurcher raw but my mate feds them both so he doesnt get the chance because my mate is totally against just a raw diet.

 

now both these dogs have lots of energy and can go for ages so which diet is the better one and were are both dogs getting their energy from as their diets are totally different??

 

thanks

[undisputed 1,664]

carbs come from food rich in fat...starch etc! pasta or rice brown bread....and yes dogs do need carbs for energy!

[Malt 379]

carbs come from food rich in fat...starch etc! pasta or rice brown bread....and yes dogs do need carbs for energy!

As above!

[sandymere 8,263]

The body can produce carbs from fats so in theory don't need to eat them but they are very important for fueling high speed muscle work so as part of a balenced diet have their place.

[cocker 2,655]

add pasta to there food its cheap easy to do and good for them

[Back Stabbath 1]

Best to stay as close to possible to nature. Dogs are mainly carniverous omnivores. They would eat mostly meat, them some fruit and berries, some grass and possibly some roots or tubers. From that diet they would get carbs in the form of sugars from the berries and fruits, indigestible cellulose from the grasses and starch from the tubers (possbily some starch from certain fruits too). They also get a small amount of stomach contents from the prey.

Starch and sugars are the only forms of carbs that dogs are capable of utilizing. Carbohydrates (except cellulose in most cases) are broken down into the simplest sugar, glucose, which provides energy.

 

Its better to give your dog some cooked potato and the odd apple rather than pasta, as dogs don't eat grain in the wild. Carrots are also great for bulking up the food a bit and giving extra nutrition.

 

A dog can actually make its own glucose from protein and fat so they don't really need carbohydrates, but they can live on a diet of mostly carb as seen in wartime and dogs today fed on low quality grain based food. They will use carbs before fat and protein because they are easier to break down. A dogs diet should be mostly meat though, with some offal and bones, and a little fruit and veg.

 

In conclusion, no a dog does not actually need to eat carbohydrates, as they can make glucose themselves.

[threbb 0]

I think they must get everything from flesh and bone.Whats fitter than a pack of fox hounds and they get skinned carcass and nothing more.That is unless they cant obtain enough then they get meal.

 

If you are just feeding flesh it should have the fat left on because they get energy from fat.I only feed mine a bit of greyhound biscuit with the meat to fill the gaps.Raw with a gravy or cooked with a gravy and the odd bone you wont go far wrong.The only thing i would add is electrolytes.

[sandymere 8,263]

I think they must get everything from flesh and bone.Whats fitter than a pack of fox hounds and they get skinned carcass and nothing more.That is unless they cant obtain enough then they get meal.

 

If you are just feeding flesh it should have the fat left on because they get energy from fat.I only feed mine a bit of greyhound biscuit with the meat to fill the gaps.Raw with a gravy or cooked with a gravy and the odd bone you wont go far wrong.The only thing i would add is electrolytes.

Why would you add salt?

[klgc 0]

Why is it that cancer is reported as being the single biggest cause of death in domestic dogs over two years old? According to information from Texas A&M University, domestic dogs and cats have a higher incidence of many tumors than do humans. Dogs have 35 times as much skin cancer, 4 times as many breast tumors, 8 times as much bone cancer, and twice as high an incidence of leukemia as do humans. Could it be all the garbage (diet, medications, pollutants) we've subjected their bodies to over generations?

 

 

A domestic dog (Canis lupus familiaris) is physiologically and biochemically a grey wolf (Canis lupus). [see book below] Prey animals and wolves are similar in terms of elemental constituents, and are thus nutritionally exchangeable. In the natural order herbivores evolved to feed on plant matter, which entails a more complex digestive system. Wolves, on the other hand, evolved in the natural order as high energy cursorial predators to feed on large herbivores (sans stomach contents), which facilitates faster digestion in a much simpler digestive system. This optimal natural diet that Wolves thrive on supplies all the nutrients they require, in the proper proportions and with the natural synergies. They also are adapted to obtaining their higher energy needs from the fats in their diet, not carbohydrates. Wolves have no known dietary requirement for carbohydrates, and what little carbohydrates they consume in the form of their prey's elemental constituents is handled in the small intestine with the help of the enzyme amylase which the pancreas produces. If they were meant to obtain carbohydrates from plant matter, they would chew their food thoroughly and their saliva would include amylase to begin the breakdown in their mouth, and they would have a longer digestive system for the more time consuming breakdown process. It's really that simple, despite industry's profit biased nutritionism pseudoscience (who by-the-way feed animal byproducts to cows), and our anthropomorphic perspective, to use plant matter. If there were anything missing from the wolf's whole prey (less stomach contents) diet, they would not thrive as they do. Let the nutritionists smoke that in their pipe 8<) Just look at the difference in excrement between dogs fed commercial diets and dogs fed species appropriate diets, to see how much more undigested waste there is in what industry offers up.

 

 

One problem with simple carbohydrates is that such are very quickly metabolized by the body to glucose (sugar), which is known to feed cancers, diabetes, and other disorders that now seem to be commonplace among our companion carnivores. Simple carbohydrates cause a spike of blood sugar and a surge of insulin. The resulting rush of insulin stores the blood sugar away, and a few hours later, blood sugar is lower than it was before eating. The body effectively thinks it has run out of fuel, but the insulin is still high enough to prevent burning fat. Thus back to hunger (carbohydrates prevent satiety), and a vicious circle ripe for obesity. Excess simple carbohydrates also, over time, promote insulin-resistance and in turn diabetes and other problems.

 

 

What it all comes down to is that to deny that a natural species appropriate diet is necessary for natural, optimal well-being, is to deny nature—i.e. the evolution of a species, and its optimal, natural diet [in the true scientific sense].

 

 

"Have you had occasion to reflect on the continuing escalation of debilitating chronic illnesses like cancer, heart diseases, various forms of arthritis, and the many other autoimmune diseases, despite our advanced development and medicine? Maybe you've also wondered why some people and animals are so naturally healthy despite this trend?

 

The author Euan Fingal has offered up a free ebook to try to help us understand how we might improve our well-being and that of our domestic animals in general, but especially that of our canine companions.

 

The book brings together ample unbiased natural sciences evidence, and the experiences of many naturally oriented caregivers, to clear a convincing swath through the propaganda surrounding well-being, and the misguided understandings it fosters. Due to it being much more comprehensive, and more thoroughly researched, referenced, and reviewed, it supersedes the previous Ol' Shep articles on this site. Bon appétit!"

 

 

To learn more about the book, and to download it, see the journal entry:

http://www.achinook.com/journal/2009/6/18/...erspective.html

 

 

My best to you and yours,

Lee C

[sandymere 8,263]

Lordy! Copy of a post on this from back along.

 

Carbohydrate part II.

The cereal debate.

 

Over the last 20'000 or so years, in all probability, man would have unknowingly bred dogs that do well on a relatively high carbohydrate diet. This idea is based on the premise that carbohydrates being the lowest value food in most societies are the most likely of all to be spared for feeding dogs. Therefore dogs that prospered on a high carb diet would have had better survival and so breeding potential. This was not a matter of evolving new abilities but rather the utilization of one already in place. Wolves, the excepted ancestor of modern dogs, have the ability to digest and utilize carbs and it’s this ability that that has been passed on to our pet dogs. Recently there has been an upsurge in new fashionable diets that seem to discount this useful ability and decry the use of any form of cereal. A dogs ability to convert fats etc into glucose (Gluconeogenesis formation of glucose from fats or proteins) is oft quoted as proof that dogs don’t need to eat carbs, using the theory that what the don’t need they shouldn’t have. If we were to look at the processes of Gluconeogenesis etc we will find that we can interchange the science between dogs and humans and so by this thinking say humans likewise don’t need carbohydrates in their diet. Personally I feel we are better to look beyond what we can be do without and rather we should see what benefits are gained from what we can do with.

 

The biological systems of digestion and energy production are older than either species and allowed man and his familiar, the dog, to dominate the earth. The ability to utilize a great variety of lifestyles and feeding opportunities allowed these two species to prosper in a great variety of habitats from tundra to desert. The remnants of their ‘wild’ ancestors still exist though only in the harshest areas, such as the Bushmen or San in the Kalahari, a few Inuit in the artic or wolves clinging to existence in the few pockets of remaining wilderness, all places that modern man and dogs didn’t really want. In my opinion just as we shouldn’t expect modern man to follow an Inuit diet because it is 'natural' neither should we limit our dogs to a diet based on, an interpretation of, what an isolated population of wolves eats today. Wolves, as with humans, had populations spread over a large part of the earth covering a great variety of habits. To base our diets on a few examples of wild groups would exclude the great variety of food sources and diets that were available to the great majority of ours and their ancestors living across the rest of the world.

 

Balance in dietary terms is not about exclusion but rather inclusion. To this must be added the lifestyle changes from those of their early ancestors as explored in Carbohydrate in the Working Canine diet. In exertional terms our working dogs are often expected to recover far quicker than nature intended. On a low carb diet Gluconeogenesis is he only way glucose for immediate use and for replenishment of stores can be produced. Gluconeogenesis needs a double process, lipid/protein digestion and then conversion, before the energy is near readiness for utilization and this can result in depleted stores unless there is an extended recovery period. The brain, eyes, red blood cells and to a large extent the heart use glucose and the muscles begin/increase glucose usage when contracting at speed i.e. sprinting, though arguably lactate will be used in some circumstances. If the stores are depleted then these areas are likely to be compromised which for a working dog may well reduce performance and increase strain on the body. Bearing this in mind to restrict a working/racing dog to a very low carbohydrate diet, i.e. exclusion of any cereals just a few raw vegetables, seems to hold little merit though it is one often advocated.

 

In conclusion science if often used to validate an individuals point of view but it needs to be born in mind that even if the science is correct if out of context it doesn’t prove anything. The example of Gluconeogenesis being used to prove dogs and so by the same theory humans, shouldn’t have, rather than can live without, eating carbs or another I read recently, carrots are high in sugar, are examples of misinformation. It’s not that they are wrong but incorrectly used that can lead to science misleading rather than helping us. I’m sure that these examples were not meant to mislead rather that those quoting them misunderstood the information themselves. So next time someone starts spouting science, especially me, remember any information scientific or otherwise is only as good as the way it is used.

 

Good Hunting sandymere.

 

Please see origanel discussion on this post for more indepth stuff.

[AKA-BRINDLE 879]

good post...good read sandymere...it seems to me that a balanced and varied diet helps for a longer life...and the longer you live the more chance you have of dieing of heart disease or cancer...live long enough and cancer will get ya in the end...so on paper this would look statistically as if certain feeds have a higher risk of cancer...a lot of research comes down to how the individual interpruts the data...just one persons opinion...a lot of a dogs (and a persons) health and performance comes down to genetics...some of the best all time sporting dogs where not fed on the best diets...i have seen dogs go into healthy old age having spent a life time fed on cheap kibble...back in the 80s my brother and his wife where (dare i say it!) vegertarians they fed their mongrel on one of the first complete foods i can remember called 'happy dog' the protien in this feed was soya chunks! you had to scold it with boiling water...the bloody dog lived to be 15!...to me the dog is not a wolf the same as man is not a chimp(well most of us) the dog is a product of man he is an oppertunist the same way as the modern fox is...just my take on it...each to their own

[lurcher lass 9]

i don't feed my dogs any carbs as where would they get pasta from naturally!!

 

but raw meat isn't enough on its own, they get raw meat and raw veg mix, then a biscuit mix that contains 70% meat 30% included sea weed oils etc all i used to add as supplements with no carbs what so ever

 

if any one is interested in the brand of dried food just pm me

[sandymere 8,263]

i don't feed my dogs any carbs as where would they get pasta from naturally!!

 

but raw meat isn't enough on its own, they get raw meat and raw veg mix, then a biscuit mix that contains 70% meat 30% included sea weed oils etc all i used to add as supplements with no carbs what so ever

 

if any one is interested in the brand of dried food just pm me

Does the dried feed not contain carbs?

Dogs don't live naturally and feed needs to match the needs of the lifestyle of the animal.

 

AKA Brindle yes dogs do well on a variety of diets and something will kill you in the end, thought I intend to live forever. Today dogs are living longer healthier lives than ever. This is likely due to good inocculations and less working injuries/illnesses as much as feeding but food will likely be part of this trend though with increasingly fatter dogs these figures may well change in the near future.

I feel it's not so much about lengh of life as its about lengh of healthy life that is key and an appropriate diet and exercise/work will maximise the genetic potential for this in both man and dog.

[Guest gaz100604]

i feed pasta mixed with red mills racer and either raw fish or mince, with drop of cod liver oil or raw eggs dogs look well fit n healty my brothers been feeding like this for 20years never had any problems ,the problem with food now adays is you put on news and sum bloke says redwine prevents heart disease turn on radio and some other bloke says red wine causes heart failure , its all bollox if you ask me

[sandymere 8,263]

i feed pasta mixed with red mills racer and either raw fish or mince, with drop of cod liver oil or raw eggs dogs look well fit n healty my brothers been feeding like this for 20years never had any problems ,the problem with food now adays is you put on news and sum bloke says redwine prevents heart disease turn on radio and some other bloke says red wine causes heart failure , its all bollox if you ask me

 

Indeed, I've found that a little of what you fancy and not to much of anything, in other words the middle of the road, seems to be the best way in the end. Most new ideas have a tendency to throw out the baby with the bath water.