Fox terriers vs Russels

[frosty 0]

I have been doing some historical research on these breeds. I think we can agree that they are both closely related and really variants of the same breed.

 

There has been claims that the russell is the true fox terrier and the wire and smooth are abominations ruined by the show ring. While it is true that some features of the modern fox terrier has been exagerated, it seems that most of continental europe and the eastern bloc have a use for them.

 

If you look at old working photos of working fox terriers they still have more resemblance to the smooth and wire fox terriers than do the russells. The fox terriers of old were longer in the leg, had longer jaws and were considerably larger than the average russell. This is not a knock on the russells but merely to dispell a myth. The russell is a type not a breed and although it has many fans and rightfully so, it is not the original fox terrier but a type incorporating many crosses creating a dog that is suitable for earthwork. Some could say it was an improvement or a strain ideally suited for earthwork.

 

I will say that some show fox terriers look like flamingos and have been greatly exaggerated. There are still a lot out there that still to this day resemble the fox terrier of old. If you take away the haircut, the chest isnt as exaggerated as some say and their is plenty of power left in those jaws.

 

As far as size. I am looking at this at a historical objective view. There is many historical cases of terriers being too large for earthwork. Earthwork wasn't the only job of the terrier, It was the poor mans hunting dog. While small terriers are often used for earthwork you can get all different sizes coming from the same litter. The larger ones were used for badger baiting and bushing activities. How about the jagd terrier? isn't it the same exact size as modern fox terriers.

 

I feel this is an objective opinion that is not biased. I do not own or never did own a fox terrier or a russell. and wrote this on a historical overview of both breeds. The purpose of this writing is not to sell you on fox terriers but to dispell the myth that the russell is the original fox terrier.

 

There is a lot of crud going around by the so called working folks that there dogs are the best and then soon are selling crossbred terriers for a lot of money. I am sure the people who breed their true working terriers know who they are and have no need to defend themselves. When I see a staffordshire cross being advertised as a patterdale well thats false advertisement. This same cross is being touted as an earthdog meanwhile it has a chest bigger than any KC Fox terrier I have ever seen. Their is no consistency in peoples opinions If this dog is a worker why can't a fox terrier be a worker? It is simple BS. People in Continental Europe have no problem with the fox terrier as a working breed but the breeders of staff crosses do. Its about money. We cant recreate history but some sure do try.

[shinyspade 2]

the fox terrier over here has been bred for generations on show points. it nothing more than a show dog now it has an over long weak jaw and has a very deep chest . its back is far to short. but the main problems lie where they cant be seen generations of breeding for showing is hardly going to help the working qualities of any dog bangin on about problems in working breeds wont make the fox terrier any better. as a working dog the fox terrier is HISTORY

[frosty 0]

So a half bred patterdale with a shot of non terrier blood is automatically going to be game because it is bred by working people. Those dogs are always workers no matter what is in them because they were bred by working terrier men.

A fox terrier has a very weak jaw, you can see this when a fox terrier grips a towel and you can swing it around in the air, very weak indeed.

 

These are myths purported by the so called working terrier breeders so they can sell you a "working dog" I bet for every fox terrier that cant fit in the fox hole there is a patterdale that won't either.

 

I forgot they are working dogs so their staffordshire shaped bodies magically get smaller as they enter a hole.

 

I am not saying by any stretch of the imagination that the fox terrier is the ultimate working dog. I am saying they are still terriers that have terrier traits and abilities. Over 100 years of breeding terrier to terrier leaves no where for these traits to go. Genes dont die unless they are purposely bred out. The gene to hunt and kill game is still very much alive in these KC dogs and was never intentionally bred out. Things like coat, shape, ear set, were bred in and out in these dogs, some for the good and some for the bad. Yes a lot of KC fox terriers look like flamingos but there are still some that dont and they are being used in continental europe as hunting dogs. Just like a KC beagle will bay, A KC Labrador will retrieve, a KC pointer will point a KC fox terrier will hunt, some better than others just like your working dogs. Yeah the working dogs have an edge just like a working bred lab and a working bred beagle etc, but the truth is KC dog will and still do hunt and the evidence is in the states with these earth dog clubs that not only have the eartdog tests (which is questionable judgement) but also real hunts that are setup. On this Forum there have been examples of KC dogs working.

[Pops 19]

for a guy who isn't trying to sell the foxy as a worker, you sure are pissing on the patterdale/fellXstaffy dogs. why the axe?

[mart 131]

i agree with a lot of the things that you are saying frosty.

up here there are a lot of foxterriers used for hunting, as long as the size is right they`ll do the job.

if you check out nordicpredators.com, you`ll find a foxterr that has 150 badgers under its belt.

my own prt is also mostly showbred but works just the way he is supposed to.

 

there are some monstrous beasts out there though, i have seen foxterriers at 20"+, and a lot of them act like sociopats wanting to fight any other dog.

[frosty 0]

for a guy who isn't trying to sell the foxy as a worker, you sure are pissing on the patterdale/fellXstaffy dogs. why the axe?

 

I am just returning the favor. These myths have been all over the internet for the past few years, all coming from breeders of 'working dogs' I do not own a fox terrier, but I can't stand BS and there seems to be a lot of it going around these days.

 

I am sure there are stafford patt crosses that suit their owners just fine.

[shinyspade 2]

frosty of course there are fox terriers that would work and maybe some would work well. but they are the exeption rather than the rule yes there are work bred dogs that are to big/broad also . whats that got to do with the price of mince there are to big in all working breeds. i'm not anti KC. i just have enough common sense to admit that years of breeding for shows will not enhance working ability. some of todays fox terriers are almost deformed due to the breeding for fashion. as for there jaws . they nost definatly have been elongated and weakened. my mother in laws yorkie will hang on anything all day and its a twat to shake off but it aint strong enough to take the bites that are inevitable in a career underground. and just to prove i'm not biased my maw had a little wire fox terrier and this bitch escaped and was found baying at a fox in a cundy she was with it for two hours and if there was a way out i'm sure she would have shifted it. she was very lucky it wasnt an aggressive fox as her jaw when wet would fit through a wedding ring my best earthdog was also a KC. parson another breed fast being ruined by show breeding

 

 

 

 

 

 

Trusty KC parson.

[amroth29 0]

is it worth continuing with this , its hard enough getting true workers underground out of established breeds ,id say about 99.99999% of fox terriers wont work , wether their size goes againsed them or they just havnt got it in them no more , i am talking about the british kc reg fox terrier of course.and by work i mean underground .

[frosty 0]

is it worth continuing with this , its hard enough getting true workers underground out of established breeds ,id say about 99.99999% of fox terriers wont work , wether their size goes againsed them or they just havnt got it in them no more , i am talking about the british kc reg fox terrier of course.and by work i mean underground .

99.99999% is that a number that you calculated through years of experience or did you pull that out of thin air. These are the statements that I am referring to.

[bignoel 14]

when i was hunt terrierman for a southeast hunt a lad brought his girlfriends fox terrier out as a pup and set a challenge .toscar was a full show bred terrier with a out standing kc . at the end of the season we had him working hard to fox .he was just a bit to big made a great draw dog even with his long snowt i called him the ant eater.

[Foxterrier 22]

Just wanna post some pictures of Norwegian workin Smooth Haired Fox Terriers.

Quite a few hunters use them here in Norway on fox, badger, mink, pine marten and so on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest Countryboyo]

I cant see how those fox terriers with their pokey pointy heads would be any good on a badger. I have came across fox terriers and they are all mouth yapping away. I used to walk past one every day with my JRT and the fox terrier would yap yap yap while my jrt ignored him but one day he got too close and when my dog caught a hold of him he took off down the road screeching. There are probably a few good ones but if you compare them to a pat for example the pats chest isnt as deep he has a wider jaw and better back. And as for staffy crosses, you only ever realy see a pat with a small bit of staffy blood in them. maybe 1/4. And whats wrong with crossing breeds and creating your own line. Most lads on here arent into crufts.

[Foxterrier 22]

Well I know about one female fox terrier that has about 150 badgers on here reputation

There is one big difference between our way of hunting and your way (Scandinavian vs UK)

We don't want our dogs to down and fight the fox or the badger.

We want our terriers to go down under earth and flush the fox out to the hunter who's waiting with his gun so he can shoot it.

When hunting badger, the dog goes down and hold the bager at bay "yaping away like crazy" so the hunter can locate them and dig down and dispatch the badger.

 

Correct me if im wrong, but to me it seems like u want your dogs to be figthers. Go under earth and bite on to the fox, killing it or holding it untill u can dig down and dispatch it.

You aint allowed to hunt badgers anymore are u ?

[Foxterrier 22]

BTW our working Fox Terriers will not get many prices at crufts, they are to ugly according to their standards :11:

But we try to breed them according to the old standard.

The looks isnt only for the showring, the standard is after all written so the dogs would be best fitted for hunting.

[Guest Countryboyo]

Its illegal to hunt badgers for some reason I dont know because there every where. there are baying dogs over here too. When you say "I know about one female fox terrier that has about 150 badgers on here reputation" do you mean that the dog has gone to ground and yap'd at 150 badgers?