A question about fox killing

[redmoor 0]

I dont want any silly comments/arguments on this..i just want to ask the question. First off..i am not an anti - i work my terriers/lurcher on rabbits, we have working gundogs and my husband shoots (rabbits/pigeon/crow etc).

 

Where we live, it is all arable land, there is a big problem with rabbits and they do a lot of damage to crops/land. The nearest place that rears young gamebirds is where my husband shoots about 9miles away. There is no livestock around here..plenty horses..millions of rabbits..but nothing off the farms for the foxes to predate.

 

I have to be honest and say that i thoroughly enjoy watching/photographing foxes, i know that they do a lot of damage around birds etc...but i just dont see the need to shoot them around here, especially when the only thing they kill are rabbits!

 

The reason i ask is that over the past months, i have stood and watched foxes being shot in broad daylight, twice from a landrover and once, today from a man on foot. I was watching the fox from an embankment and he was mooching around the stubble looking for mice etc..suddenly BANG..and down he went. The other question i have, is it normal practice to leave the bodies where they fall?

 

Can anyone explain why this is? Are they shot purely because they are foxes?

[redmoor 0]

vermin need to be controlled,shame they are being shot though,not sporting if you ask me

 

Why control vermin (foxes) in an area where they are killing rabbits and not affecting livestock/ground birds though?

[SportingShooter 0]

If they do no damage then let them be as I do on a lot of ground but if there's a chance they will cause trouble, I control them

[labsnlurchers 39]

when hunting with dogs was legal the fox population was 'naturally' selectively bred for survival. If a fox was clever, healthy , fast and fed itself well then it would more than likely escape the dogs, the slower, ill foxes with poor survival instincts bred into them were caught and killed, this obviously means that their breeding was none or very limited so only the 'well bred' foxes with good survival instincts would survive long enough to breed and thus pass on their skills to their offspring all this = a healthy fox population. Now with shooting there is very little selection in the animals killed so this in my opinion is going to lead to the demise of the fox.

Any way back to topic, yes, fox control is required. Over population causes problems with other wildlife within the habitat, farmers, gamekeepers and the foxes themselves begin to compete for food, too much competition will lead to starving foxes, not good.

[redmoor 0]

If they do no damage then let them be as I do on a lot of ground but if there's a chance they will cause trouble, I control them

 

Thanks for that..that seems sensible. If there is no livestock/birds..what other trouble will they cause?

 

I feel sad that they are often shot purely just for being there.

 

I would have no hesitation in shooting a fox that was taking birds etc but i dont see why they are shot just for the sake of it. They are a part of our wildlife and a predator (i know they are seen as vermin) but they do seem to be hated by some quarters.

[redmoor 0]

when hunting with dogs was legal the fox population was 'naturally' selectively bred for survival. If a fox was clever, healthy , fast and fed itself well then it would more than likely escape the dogs, the slower, ill foxes with poor survival instincts bred into them were caught and killed, this obviously means that their breeding was none or very limited so only the 'well bred' foxes with good survival instincts would survive long enough to breed and thus pass on their skills to their offspring all this = a healthy fox population. Now with shooting there is very little selection in the animals killed so this in my opinion is going to lead to the demise of the fox.

Any way back to topic, yes, fox control is required. Over population causes problems with other wildlife within the habitat, gamekeepers and the foxes themselves begin to compete for food, too much competition will lead to starving foxes, not good.

 

That also makes a lot of sense..a gun out for a mooch is going to just shoot the first fox he sees..i had never really thought of it the way you describe it. Some of the young guys out with guns will just shoot anything that moves..they shot a vixen, heavy with milk last March very close to the den..but didnt finish off the cubs, which were obvious in the den to anyone with half a brain. That to me is bad sportsmanship.

 

When you say 'fox control' - why to some people does this mean erradicating everyone they see? Surely control is about what you describe as 'survival of the fittest?'

Edited November 2, 2008 by redmoor

[SNAP SHOT 194]

right the foxes i shoot on the permission i have are all causing problems, 32 lambs where taken the year before last and the farmer had a few lads out to try and control the problem but they where messers........... So he then heard i shot and contacted me through work, i took 62 foxes of this farm and there is still plenty left yet, let me paint you a picture here, this is all hill land very demanding livestock rearing with little profit, and no means of control by any other means only shooting,

i believe this incident you recall to be in bad light of the sport, simply because you are over-run with rabbits which the fox would control, on the other hand are there many in the area, but these lads leaving the carcass there, is poor judgement.......and in my opinion is poor sport.....AND NOT CONTROL OR MANAGEMENT......................

All vermin need to be controled but in the correct manor, control, not extermination, is most shooters, aim..........SS

[SportingShooter 0]

If the ground was closer to a poultry farm or sheep farm etc then I would control or someone would control the foxes next door, but as you say, this ground wasn't.

 

I leave a lot of foxes go on the Arable land I shoot Pigeons on, because a) they eat all the carrion I leave there along with the Buzzards and other Birds of Prey they control the Rabbits which then don't go on to eat the crop, and c) they control the mice and rats for the same reason.

 

I have one piece of Ground which is a chicken farm, next door is cattle, but I still control the ones next door as there is that chance.

 

SS

 

Edited to add, one thing I cant accept LabsnLurchers is about the healthy fox population, a fox with poor instincts doesn't stop it raiding hen houses if you see what I mean.

[redmoor 0]

I have permission on the land with the dogs, the farmer is a decent guy and sensible, his sons and their friends however dont take after their father and seem to spend a lot of time hooning around in 4x4 taking pot shots at things. We had a Roe Deer on the golf course in June, she had been shot in the leg and the neck..this isnt the first time..there is a fox still running around on three legs around here...we came across a Roe a few years ago, badly injured but still alive, she had obviously lain a while and the foxes had had a chew at her whilst she couldnt get away. Again, we come across Roe carcasses in various states of rotting.

 

These sort of shooters give everyone a bad name.

 

Getting back to control..if an area has no livestock..why cant natural selection take care of the fox population..ie roads/railway etc. How far will these foxes hunt out of their 'area'? I imagine they would only leave their own territory if there wasnt enough food..which evidently there is?

Edited November 2, 2008 by redmoor

[SportingShooter 0]

These sort of shooters give everyone a bad name.

 

Getting back to control..if an area has no livestock..why cant natural selection take care of the fox population..ie roads/railway etc.

 

You're right, this sort of thing does give all shooters a bad name, and makes people tar us all with the same brush, I'm quite glad that on here you can see shooters with a good degree of ethics and good control. One of the plus points of Forums.

 

SS

[labsnlurchers 39]

when hunting with dogs was legal the fox population was 'naturally' selectively bred for survival. If a fox was clever, healthy , fast and fed itself well then it would more than likely escape the dogs, the slower, ill foxes with poor survival instincts bred into them were caught and killed, this obviously means that their breeding was none or very limited so only the 'well bred' foxes with good survival instincts would survive long enough to breed and thus pass on their skills to their offspring all this = a healthy fox population. Now with shooting there is very little selection in the animals killed so this in my opinion is going to lead to the demise of the fox.

Any way back to topic, yes, fox control is required. Over population causes problems with other wildlife within the habitat, gamekeepers and the foxes themselves begin to compete for food, too much competition will lead to starving foxes, not good.

 

That also makes a lot of sense..a gun out for a mooch is going to just shoot the first fox he sees..i had never really thought of it the way you describe it. Some of the young guys out with guns will just shoot anything that moves..they shot a vixen, heavy with milk last March very close to the den..but didnt finish off the cubs, which were obvious in the den to anyone with half a brain. That to me is bad sportsmanship.

 

When you say 'fox control' - why to some people does this mean erradicating everyone they see? Surely control is about what you describe as 'survival of the fittest?'

 

survival of the fittest. no contest with a gun, the gun wins 9/10 times. Most responsible shooters like ss do a proper job and CONTROL the fox population as best you can with a gun but as i say there is little selection involved when shooting a fox, be it healthy or ill it is still a target and foxes that would normally escape the dogs now have very little chance of survival.

BRING BACK HUNTING WITH DOGS!! this is just my opinion but i know im right! lol the fox population is suffering as a direct result of the government getting involved in things they know nothing about. rant over lol!

[labsnlurchers 39]

If the ground was closer to a poultry farm or sheep farm etc then I would control or someone would control the foxes next door, but as you say, this ground wasn't.

 

I leave a lot of foxes go on the Arable land I shoot Pigeons on, because a) they eat all the carrion I leave there along with the Buzzards and other Birds of Prey they control the Rabbits which then don't go on to eat the crop, and c) they control the mice and rats for the same reason.

 

I have one piece of Ground which is a chicken farm, next door is cattle, but I still control the ones next door as there is that chance.

 

SS

 

Edited to add, one thing I cant accept LabsnLurchers is about the healthy fox population, a fox with poor instincts doesn't stop it raiding hen houses if you see what I mean.

ss i dont see what you mean? a fox with poor instincts is far more likely in my opinion to raid a hen house because it is not clever or skillful enough to get its food from the wild where its supposed too and if it breeds its offspring will do the same....jmo

[SportingShooter 0]

When you say 'fox control' - why to some people does this mean erradicating everyone they see? Surely control is about what you describe as 'survival of the fittest?'

 

 

survival of the fittest. no contest with a gun, the gun wins 9/10 times. Most responsible shooters like ss do a proper job and CONTROL the fox population as best you can with a gun but as i say there is little selection involved when shooting a fox, be it healthy or ill it is still a target and foxes that would normally escape the dogs now have very little chance of survival.

BRING BACK HUNTING WITH DOGS!! this is just my opinion but i know im right! lol the fox population is suffering as a direct result of the government getting involved in things they know nothing about. rant over lol!

Red Tape and bureaucracy

[labsnlurchers 39]

I have permission on the land with the dogs, the farmer is a decent guy and sensible, his sons and their friends however dont take after their father and seem to spend a lot of time hooning around in 4x4 taking pot shots at things. We had a Roe Deer on the golf course in June, she had been shot in the leg and the neck..this isnt the first time..there is a fox still running around on three legs around here...we came across a Roe a few years ago, badly injured but still alive, she had obviously lain a while and the foxes had had a chew at her whilst she couldnt get away. Again, we come across Roe carcasses in various states of rotting.

 

These sort of shooters give everyone a bad name.

 

Getting back to control..if an area has no livestock..why cant natural selection take care of the fox population..ie roads/railway etc. How far will these foxes hunt out of their 'area'? I imagine they would only leave their own territory if there wasnt enough food..which evidently there is?

 

just to pick up on the road railway bit, that is not natural selection im afraid. i would much rather see a fox shot (by responsible shooters) rather than hit by a car/train risk of injury and not death therefore suffering is higher.

[SportingShooter 0]

If the ground was closer to a poultry farm or sheep farm etc then I would control or someone would control the foxes next door, but as you say, this ground wasn't.

 

I leave a lot of foxes go on the Arable land I shoot Pigeons on, because a) they eat all the carrion I leave there along with the Buzzards and other Birds of Prey they control the Rabbits which then don't go on to eat the crop, and c) they control the mice and rats for the same reason.

 

I have one piece of Ground which is a chicken farm, next door is cattle, but I still control the ones next door as there is that chance.

 

SS

 

Edited to add, one thing I cant accept LabsnLurchers is about the healthy fox population, a fox with poor instincts doesn't stop it raiding hen houses if you see what I mean.

ss i dont see what you mean? a fox with poor instincts is far more likely in my opinion to raid a hen house because it is not clever or skillful enough to get its food from the wild where its supposed too and if it breeds its offspring will do the same....jmo

Just meant that a fox be it healthy or ill can do damage and that its not easy to define either when trying to control a fox after an event like a hen house raid(sounds like the flying squad )