Remi carts or equivilent

[tom1cameron 1]

Hi everyone

 

I suspect the answer will be "try john forsey", but I dont live near london and I cant afford or justify buying in enough bulk to make an order from JF worth my while.

 

I have switched to steel for fowling, quite happy as long as my carts fire 1400+ fps. Despite many concerns, as long as you stick to some simple rules I have had no losses. Cripples have been a big problem in finding the right brand.

 

I am now very happy with Hull or Express 3" 3's for ducks, kill kill kill, but these are pants on geese. All that I can get to work for pass/flight shooting geese is Hevishot. BUt this is too expensive.

 

So I want a FAST steel goose load. I have searched everywhere and basically there are only the american loads from remington, with their sportsman load looking the best, or wichesters from York Guns. Great loads but very pricey. Winchester =23 for 25 3.5" steel

 

The remi's are 1550fps, 2's or BB in 3.5" at 14.99/25 from John Forsey. But they are 20squid everywhere else!

 

Does anybody know a supplier that is better value for these remi's in the North of England or Scotland

 

OR.... Does anyone have a syndicate/club ordering scheme that I could join

 

Best wishes and all advice and comments on being a scot living in Yorks who is counting pennies welcome

 

Tom

Edited January 6, 2009 by tom1cameron

[SportingShooter 0]

Have you tried Express 3" No.1's? I've used them on Geese for the past season and they knocked them down with no Problem. Just as long as you keep the range sensible, 30 yards is my maximum, self-induced range.

 

Hevi-Shot is superb stuff but is getting expensive, Remington 3" Sportsman Steel is not too expensive I think. About £11-£12 depending on where you go.

 

Have you seen the Price on Remington Wingmaster HD? 12b 3 1/2" loads, near enough £5 a shot.

 

The only other option I can think of for fast, effective loads is to home load, like I do.

 

Regards

SS

[mj robson 8]

Hi Tom,

 

Try macleod's

 

They have a very good selection of fowling cartridges.

 

Cheers,

Mark.

[edenman 0]

[]

 

load your own steel carts,you can get fantastic fast loads that way.plus you can tailor them to your own needs.steel will kill as well as hevi shot if fired at the correct velocity

[tom1cameron 1]

load your own steel carts,you can get fantastic fast loads that way.plus you can tailor them to your own needs.steel will kill as well as hevi shot if fired at the correct velocity

 

 

what is the correct velocity?

[edenman 0]

iam by no means an expert but anything in excess of 1600fps works for me in 4mm steel.but after market choke tubes are a must in my opinion

[tom1cameron 1]

iam by no means an expert but anything in excess of 1600fps works for me in 4mm steel.but after market choke tubes are a must in my opinion

 

It is interesting, as that is what the Danes like to use, but the American market is only just starting to offer loads above 1550.

I have seen some evidence that suggests that speed is not as important as you think. That shot size and pattern are. Indeed with lead, slow to mid velocity shells throw better patterns. But I am convinced that some higher velocity is needed to maintain penetration at longer ranges (35yds+).

 

I cant be specific about the evidence but it will be published in good time.

 

And yes, steel specific choke tubes are important, my extrema comes with strengthened chokes for use with steel.

[troutnabout 0]

Surely if the steel is hitting hard enough to break bones, it is hitting hard enough to kill, if its in the right place????

 

Ive had some good results with steel with some longish shots..... but only if the target is hit!!

 

Maybe just me but i have not noticed any difference in my results since the advent of non toxic loads

[tom1cameron 1]

I think you may be right, it took me 8 out of a box of 10 hevishot duck to relaise there was noting wrong with them, just my aim! It was very dark though so I was chuffed with the double mallard with the next two!

 

The large steel shot sizes break wing bones easily when firing at a 35-45yd goose. To kill that goose you must, on average, hit the lower neck region to get into the heart and spine. That is a very small percentage of the body. With lead, at that range using my 40g 3's I could kill a pink by swinging through the neck to hit the upper breast region. The shot would penetrate the breast plate and neck and kill consistantly.

[tom1cameron 1]

This is food for thought on the steel debate. Also added in at the end is an intersting piece of wounding rates.

If this latter info is genuine, which it probably is, then get a hold of your BASC respect for quarry programme and start drilling it into your heads!

 

 

 

By WILLY ZIMMER

Star-Tribune staff writer

 

Shotgunning entered a brave new world in 1991, when the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service banned lead shot for waterfowl hunting.

 

Shotshell ballistics expert Tom Roster believes shotgunning may be on the verge of entering another era that is confusing, and perhaps more dangerous.

 

Roster visited Casper last weekend to for a clinic sponsored by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department and the Cooperative North American Shotgunning Education Program. One of his points of emphasis was the confusion the changeover from lead created in the shotgunning world. Roster called the numerous shot choices and the questions they create "a stinking mess."

 

"How are we going to make sense out of this?" he asked. "It's not going to happen."

 

Roster has the credentials to make a judgement. The Oregon resident is an independent ballistics consultant, and serves as editor in various capacities for Sporting Clays magazine, the Shooting Sportsman magazine, and Waterfowl Hunter Quarterly.

 

According to his biography, he has "fired more rounds of steel and Hevi-Shot and bagged more waterfowl and upland birds with both than anyone in history."

 

As a consultant, Roster has helped CONSEP compile the world's largest data base on pattern testing and terminal ballistics for nontoxic shotshell loads. His research included X-raying almost 20,000 harvested birds to determine how shot penetrates, and where it must hit to result in a fatality.

 

Roster said approximately 95 percent of all shot fired at waterfowl is steel, so much of the research has focused on steel shot. A long-standing criticism of steel pellets has been it is less dense and loses momentum at longer ranges.

 

Also, hunters feared the harder pellet would damage shotgun barrels and chokes.

 

Roster's conclusion is steel shot is not only an adequate replacement, but is superior to lead in some respects. Research shows steel has better penetration when the shot is the same weight, and actually penetrates better outside of 45 yards.

 

Steel pellets also cause little or no damage to equipment, because the shell wadding is used to protect the barrel from erosion.

 

"Fear not about erosion," Roster said.

 

Roster reminded steel is also the cheapest option, next to lead.

 

Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner Jerry Galles was one of the 20-plus shooters in attendance, and called the research "an eye opener."

 

"It dispelled a bunch of non-truths I learned over the years about what steel shot does and doesn't do and how shotgunning works," Galles said.

 

New evils from old

 

There is little argument the lead-shot ban is a good thing. A 1959 survey by the Illinois Natural History Survey concluded 2-3 percent of the waterfowl population was killed annually by lead shot poisoning. Roster said that amounted to approximately 1.5 million ducks and geese each year.

 

The advent of nontoxic shot has saved millions of birds, but with the nontoxic age has come other problems. The plastic wadding used to protect guns from steel is not biodegradable, and is causing a pollution problem in heavily hunted areas. Roster recounted seeing hundreds of plastic wads floating along the shore of one lake, and could only imagine what a nonhunter sees.

 

"Now we're throwing all these plastic beer cans out there that won't biodegrade," Roster said. "... Imagine the impression that creates for the nonhunting public. But, I guess we've created a lesser evil to get rid of an evil."

 

A lead-free future may also become more lethal. Many of the new shot types combine tungsten and other metals that are denser than lead. The Federal Heavyweight, for example, has a density of 15 grams per cubic centimeter.

 

Lead, by comparison, weighs in at 11.3 grams per cubic centimeter. Roster asked the gathered shotgunners if they are willing to face the danger of larger pellets flying farther and faster in crowded hunting environments.

 

There are solutions to these lesser evils. Shotshell manufacturers, who Roster calls "slaves to their molds," could use enzymes in plastic waddings that enables biodegrading.

 

And to keep hunters safer, Roster advocates regulating shot size and density, much the same way lead shot is regulated.

 

"How dense a projectile do we want people shooting at each other with?" Roster said. "You're going to see a continuing parade of tungsten-type projectiles until somebody regulates them. ... We don't need it any more lethal."

 

-------------------------------------------

 

Facing up to hunting's dirty little secret

 

By WILLY ZIMMER

Star-Tribune staff writer

 

Wounded animals have always been hunting's dirty little secret. No hunter wants to admit it, but virtually all of us eventually make a bad shot or decision that results in a wounded animal.

 

Shotgunning expert Tom Roster believes it's time the hunting community admits there is a problem, and does something to deal with it.

 

Roster is a shotshell ballistics expert who was in Casper last weekend to offer a clinic for the Cooperative North American Shotgunning Education Program. Part of his work has been to help collect empirical data on how many waterfowl are wounded, but go unretrieved.

 

The data is appalling, partly for how often hunters fail to perceive they actually wounded a bird. According to a questionnaire study by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, duck hunters reported over the course of several years an average wounding rate of 18 percent.

 

Another study using trained observers, however, estimated the rate at closer to 30 percent.

 

A "conservative estimate" used as a compromise adjusted the wounding rate to 25 percent, but that still means one out of four ducks hit by gunfire went unretrieved. Roster said that amounts to 2.5-3 million ducks annually.

 

"Wounding is not a pleasant subject, but it's something we are going to have to address proactively," Roster said. "There are two ways of looking at it. We can either stick our heads in the sand and hope it goes away, or we can figure out ways to improve hunting skills."

 

An argument you often hear is most of the wounded animals survive. Roster debunked that notion, however, with research that suggests only 15 percent live to fly again.

 

That means more than 2 million ducks are dying each year from wounding. By comparison, lead poisoning at its worst annually claimed 1.5 million birds.

 

"If you look at those statistics, it is astounding the number of birds that are not harvested that go away and die," said Wyoming Game and Fish Commissioner Jerry Galles. "It's remarkable the resource is able to sustain itself with all those losses."

 

Roster said CONSEP believes the high wounding percentage is caused by several factors:

 

*Poor shooting skills

 

*Shooting at game that is too far away

 

*Poor choice of equipment

 

*Poor patterning

 

*Not enough self discipline

 

In other words, poor hunting skills. Roster said shooters need to practice more, learn how to pattern properly and better understand shot-string behavior. More education also needs to be offered on how to select chokes, shot sizes and make other equipment decisions.

 

And hunters need to practice at facilities that offer target trajectories that "represent hunting problems," Roster said.

 

A problem is giving hunters the opportunities, and CONSEP hopes to remedy that in the coming years. The 20-state cooperative program has been training shooting instructors in the participating states for years. Roster said Wyoming is one of the more active states in the program.

 

But Galles said there is a long way to go, partly because better training costs money and much of the Game and Fish Department's hunting dollars are siphoned off to maintain nongame animals.

 

But you can bet hunter training will be a subject for discussion at future commission meetings.

 

"We've got hunter education and we teach the youth and parents as much as we can about animal identification and safety and the other things that are involved in hunter education," Galles said, "but we don't teach them how to shoot. ... We leave that up to their own time frames, we leave that up to their parents or relatives. There are no places that a person can go to learn how to shoot."

 

Roster said the National Shooting Sports Foundation once concluded through a survey that the nonhunting public feels any wounding rate above 10 percent is unacceptable. He believes someday the anti-hunting community will find a federal judge that agrees with the public.

 

The message is all hunters, not just shotgunners, need to get out and practice more. If we aren't willing to do that, there may come a day when our hunting heritage will be little more than a memory.

 

"We almost lost waterfowl hunting because of toxic shot," Roster said. "... I'm seeing the tip of an iceberg on wounding, just like a I saw the tip of the iceberg on toxic shot. We have not taught hunters how to be more lethal. I am convinced it can be done, but it will take a concerted effort."

[tom1cameron 1]

To continue this steel support

Shooting at montrose as posted in WAG's whats happening? topic.

1 greylag, 4 goldeneye, 1 wigeon and 1 teal. All shot dead in the air. The goose did move on arrival at the ground for a few seconds. All shot with steel 1's at a variety of distances (38.5gm and 43.75gm). Not one had damaged meat or broken wings.

It was just that we shot well that day and when we performed, the steel performed!

Edited January 6, 2009 by tom1cameron