Crossing terriers, out crossing

[Guest gazza]

Right.. back to the original thread... border/russell.... russell/pat....

 

If you have done it, serious question.... why did you do it and what were your long term plans... ???

improvement.

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

So your saying that Middleton took advantage of the strong jawed fox terrier to improve the working quality of the lakies he owned .Right mate ,its all clear now ,say no more .Nothing to do with the fact that fox terriers had by then been accepted by the fecking kennel club and anyway middleton wasnt the first to use fox terrier .Let me quess, a quick character run down would suggest a teenager with an extensive Sean Frain collection .Maybe wrong about the teenager

Edited September 7, 2008 by foxdropper

[Guest gazza]

So your saying that Middleton took advantage of the strong jawed fox terrier to improve the working quality of the lakies he owned .Right mate ,its all clear now ,say no more .Nothing to do with the fact that fox terriers had by then been accepted by the fecking kennel club .Let me quess, a quick character run down would suggest a teenager with an extensive Sean Frain collection .Maybe wrong about the teenager

he worked before he showed them and at 1 point everybody had or wanted a middleton lakie.the question in hand is why x breed its to improve up to him if he wanted to make money from it.least these men have got books to there name they all proved thereselfs before hand dont see any of your books around sunbeam

[Squirrel_Basher 17,100]

So your saying that Middleton took advantage of the strong jawed fox terrier to improve the working quality of the lakies he owned .Right mate ,its all clear now ,say no more .Nothing to do with the fact that fox terriers had by then been accepted by the fecking kennel club .Let me quess, a quick character run down would suggest a teenager with an extensive Sean Frain collection .Maybe wrong about the teenager

he worked before he showed them and at 1 point everybody had or wanted a middleton lakie.the question in hand is why x breed its to improve up to him if he wanted to make money from it.least these men have got books to there name they all proved thereselfs before hand dont see any of your books around sunbeam

 

Sunbeam -yes i suppose i am a ray of light .

Mate ,dont treat everything you read as gospel as you'll end up as deluded and self righteous as some of those that write them .

[Guest gazza]

So your saying that Middleton took advantage of the strong jawed fox terrier to improve the working quality of the lakies he owned .Right mate ,its all clear now ,say no more .Nothing to do with the fact that fox terriers had by then been accepted by the fecking kennel club .Let me quess, a quick character run down would suggest a teenager with an extensive Sean Frain collection .Maybe wrong about the teenager

he worked before he showed them and at 1 point everybody had or wanted a middleton lakie.the question in hand is why x breed its to improve up to him if he wanted to make money from it.least these men have got books to there name they all proved thereselfs before hand dont see any of your books around sunbeam

 

Sunbeam -yes i suppose i am a ray of light .

Mate ,dont treat everything you read as gospel as you'll end up as deluded and self righteous as some of those that write them .

never read sean frain.just stating the facts have you ever met mr middleton because im sure he would still teach you a thing or 2,like dont disrespect those who have done so much for the sport.times changed and he moved onto new pastures whats your problem with that if you mention these names im sure every1 on here would have red a book,would have owned or known [bANNED TEXT] who has owned a middletin terrier.what gives you the right to slate.

[swanseajack 228]

Right.. back to the original thread... border/russell.... russell/pat....

 

If you have done it, serious question.... why did you do it and what were your long term plans... ???

improvement.

exactly what improvement would you get by putting a russell over a pat... you have obviously never done anything in regards to breeding terriers... read to many of Frains books, by the sound of it, I was asking genuine terriermen who Have done it, not a wannabee that hasn'g got a clue, giving opinions that you just cannot substantiate... now f uck of and stick to making boilies...

[swanseajack 228]

So your saying that Middleton took advantage of the strong jawed fox terrier to improve the working quality of the lakies he owned .Right mate ,its all clear now ,say no more .Nothing to do with the fact that fox terriers had by then been accepted by the fecking kennel club .Let me quess, a quick character run down would suggest a teenager with an extensive Sean Frain collection .Maybe wrong about the teenager

he worked before he showed them and at 1 point everybody had or wanted a middleton lakie.the question in hand is why x breed its to improve up to him if he wanted to make money from it.least these men have got books to there name they all proved thereselfs before hand dont see any of your books around sunbeam

 

Sunbeam -yes i suppose i am a ray of light .

Mate ,dont treat everything you read as gospel as you'll end up as deluded and self righteous as some of those that write them .

never read sean frain.just stating the facts have you ever met mr middleton because im sure he would still teach you a thing or 2,like dont disrespect those who have done so much for the sport.times changed and he moved onto new pastures whats your problem with that if you mention these names im sure every1 on here would have red a book,would have owned or known [bANNED TEXT] who has owned a middletin terrier.what gives you the right to slate.

Gary Middleton HAD good terriers 20 years ago maybe, not maybe yes he did, he had some good terriers, but the writing was on the wall... I know enough and have seen/heard enough of late to say the dogs of today aren't a patch on what he originally had...

 

the lakeland dog used in my beddies was a ..... wait for it..... a Middleton Lakeland...... and he was a good one...

 

Gazza if you haven't got anything constructive to add... go play... the question is aimed at people who have done it...

[Guest gazza]

Right.. back to the original thread... border/russell.... russell/pat....

 

If you have done it, serious question.... why did you do it and what were your long term plans... ???

improvement.

exactly what improvement would you get by putting a russell over a pat... you have obviously never done anything in regards to breeding terriers... read to many of Frains books, by the sound of it, I was asking genuine terriermen who Have done it, not a wannabee that hasn'g got a clue, giving opinions that you just cannot substantiate... now f uck of and stick to making boilies...

just got respect for what these men have achieved,ur improving the jack .who are you

not a wannabe either mate just interested in the history of the sport i enjoy.stick to the sheep mate your just a f*****g hypocrite.hes bread better dogs than youve probably every owned.what makes you a genuine terrierman or what does it take to qualifie?hes been there and done it now hes selling the t shirts hes proved himself as a terrier man you arse

[Guest gazza]

So your saying that Middleton took advantage of the strong jawed fox terrier to improve the working quality of the lakies he owned .Right mate ,its all clear now ,say no more .Nothing to do with the fact that fox terriers had by then been accepted by the fecking kennel club .Let me quess, a quick character run down would suggest a teenager with an extensive Sean Frain collection .Maybe wrong about the teenager

he worked before he showed them and at 1 point everybody had or wanted a middleton lakie.the question in hand is why x breed its to improve up to him if he wanted to make money from it.least these men have got books to there name they all proved thereselfs before hand dont see any of your books around sunbeam

 

Sunbeam -yes i suppose i am a ray of light .

Mate ,dont treat everything you read as gospel as you'll end up as deluded and self righteous as some of those that write them .

never read sean frain.just stating the facts have you ever met mr middleton because im sure he would still teach you a thing or 2,like dont disrespect those who have done so much for the sport.times changed and he moved onto new pastures whats your problem with that if you mention these names im sure every1 on here would have red a book,would have owned or known [bANNED TEXT] who has owned a middletin terrier.what gives you the right to slate.

Gary Middleton HAD good terriers 20 years ago maybe, not maybe yes he did, he had some good terriers, but the writing was on the wall... I know enough and have seen/heard enough of late to say the dogs of today aren't a patch on what he originally had...

 

the lakeland dog used in my beddies was a ..... wait for it..... a Middleton Lakeland...... and he was a good one...

 

Gazza if you haven't got anything constructive to add... go play... the question is aimed at people who have done it...

il go play once one of your books are for sale and youve proved yourself.

[harddigging 42]

swanseajack what was the reason for adding lakeland to your beddlingtons was it to bring the height down a shade or was ther another reason ifso what and was it productive saying that it must off been if your still keeping the same line.

[Bosun11 537]

Good subject Jack,

 

When I started with terriers back in the late 70's, Border/Lakies were a type rather than a cross...

Black n' tan dogs were Lakelands, black dogs were Patterdales and white's Russells..... And never the twain shall meet, seemed the order of the day.

I suppose back then what some now refer to as Fells were Border/Lakies?

Why cross a Border with a Lakeland???

Well, reading Plummers Fell Terrier, it'll mention 'calming the fiery Lakie disposition with the more placid Border, to produce an animal that would not be so wreckless'!!

I doubt that would be the only thing as to why these two were put together, if I was to put my logic (an I'm far from any reliable source!) to it, most were bred just plain an simple 'worker to worker' as there were good working Borders about but i'll bet far more lads back then kept Lakies than Borders.... So if you had a sound working Lakie bitch (or vice-versa) why go to a Border for a line if you could use a good Lakie dog...?

 

I'm goin for head and coat as two more reasons....

 

Head......

.....Because although there were sound strains of working Lakies about, most, if left to their own devices, would produce snipey heads over generations due to outcrosses to Fox terriers and show types years before. Back in the early 's you would see plenty of snipe headed Lakie's at shows, I owned a few.... Not that it made a bit of difference as to how they grafted.

The only one who was breeding the 'block' headed black n' tan's then was G.M. and that's all he bred 'em for...... Big heads... His 'once' good line's working ability was going down the pan, even then!!

Put a Border to a Lakie and you'll improve head type for a start..... Look at the Black dogs for this... Look again at Pummers Fell Terrier and those early dogs of Frank Buck.... Almost Border!!!

 

Coat....

....Again, going back twenty plus years I can recall Borders and Border types with some serious jackets on 'em! Harsh fur with skin like a feckin Rino, honestly, some almost wouldn't feel real..! To me this was/is important, put a dog in a soaking drain in February at 7am with a open type coat and that dog would be in a feckin mess by 3pm!

I once spoke to Cyril Tyson, in my teens, just after 'Fell Terrier' had been published and a mate went up for a Terrier pup, when we were there, and what a Gentleman, his main conversation was about improving the coats on his dogs (we took it that working ability was a given and it was!!) and now 'everyone' wants a massive head! I wish now I would have stayed and listened longer.... His words seem to have come right....

 

Anyways.... thats my ramblings on why people 'used' to cross these two, please feel free to pull it apart, i'm no expert!

 

Cheers

[swanseajack 228]

Good subject Jack,

 

When I started with terriers back in the late 70's, Border/Lakies were a type rather than a cross...

Black n' tan dogs were Lakelands, black dogs were Patterdales and white's Russells..... And never the twain shall meet, seemed the order of the day.

I suppose back then what some now refer to as Fells were Border/Lakies?

Why cross a Border with a Lakeland???

Well, reading Plummers Fell Terrier, it'll mention 'calming the fiery Lakie disposition with the more placid Border, to produce an animal that would not be so wreckless'!!

I doubt that would be the only thing as to why these two were put together, if I was to put my logic (an I'm far from any reliable source!) to it, most were bred just plain an simple 'worker to worker' as there were good working Borders about but i'll bet far more lads back then kept Lakies than Borders.... So if you had a sound working Lakie bitch (or vice-versa) why go to a Border for a line if you could use a good Lakie dog...?

 

I'm goin for head and coat as two more reasons....

 

Head......

.....Because although there were sound strains of working Lakies about, most, if left to their own devices, would produce snipey heads over generations due to outcrosses to Fox terriers and show types years before. Back in the early 's you would see plenty of snipe headed Lakie's at shows, I owned a few.... Not that it made a bit of difference as to how they grafted.

The only one who was breeding the 'block' headed black n' tan's then was G.M. and that's all he bred 'em for...... Big heads... His 'once' good line's working ability was going down the pan, even then!!

Put a Border to a Lakie and you'll improve head type for a start..... Look at the Black dogs for this... Look again at Pummers Fell Terrier and those early dogs of Frank Buck.... Almost Border!!!

 

Coat....

....Again, going back twenty plus years I can recall Borders and Border types with some serious jackets on 'em! Harsh fur with skin like a feckin Rino, honestly, some almost wouldn't feel real..! To me this was/is important, put a dog in a soaking drain in February at 7am with a open type coat and that dog would be in a feckin mess by 3pm!

I once spoke to Cyril Tyson, in my teens, just after 'Fell Terrier' had been published and a mate went up for a Terrier pup, when we were there, and what a Gentleman, his main conversation was about improving the coats on his dogs (we took it that working ability was a given and it was!!) and now 'everyone' wants a massive head! I wish now I would have stayed and listened longer.... His words seem to have come right....

 

Anyways.... thats my ramblings on why people 'used' to cross these two, please feel free to pull it apart, i'm no expert!

 

Cheers

 

Bosun, you're a star mate... now that's the type of answer I was looking for.. sensible direct and constructive...

[shinyspade 2]

THERE IS MANY REASONS TO CROSS BREED. oops caps/ the most obvious is to improve on what you have in your kennel in some way or other. simple as that. why has the bedlington terrier been outcrossed to different breeds. to bring down the size/ to improve the coat/ to strengthen the head/ to improve the working qualities. some folk dont have long term plans so they use the nearest working terrier to there bitch and produce crossbred workers. wasnt the bedlington used many years ago to stiffen the lakys that were found lacking. i produced crossbreds years ago by useing a laky over a russell bitch as he was the best dog around. simple as that . if we where all the same we would all have terriers that looked and worked the same

[Guest gazza]

Good subject Jack,

 

When I started with terriers back in the late 70's, Border/Lakies were a type rather than a cross...

Black n' tan dogs were Lakelands, black dogs were Patterdales and white's Russells..... And never the twain shall meet, seemed the order of the day.

I suppose back then what some now refer to as Fells were Border/Lakies?

Why cross a Border with a Lakeland???

Well, reading Plummers Fell Terrier, it'll mention 'calming the fiery Lakie disposition with the more placid Border, to produce an animal that would not be so wreckless'!!

I doubt that would be the only thing as to why these two were put together, if I was to put my logic (an I'm far from any reliable source!) to it, most were bred just plain an simple 'worker to worker' as there were good working Borders about but i'll bet far more lads back then kept Lakies than Borders.... So if you had a sound working Lakie bitch (or vice-versa) why go to a Border for a line if you could use a good Lakie dog...?

 

I'm goin for head and coat as two more reasons....

 

Head......

.....Because although there were sound strains of working Lakies about, most, if left to their own devices, would produce snipey heads over generations due to outcrosses to Fox terriers and show types years before. Back in the early 's you would see plenty of snipe headed Lakie's at shows, I owned a few.... Not that it made a bit of difference as to how they grafted.

The only one who was breeding the 'block' headed black n' tan's then was G.M. and that's all he bred 'em for...... Big heads... His 'once' good line's working ability was going down the pan, even then!!

Put a Border to a Lakie and you'll improve head type for a start..... Look at the Black dogs for this... Look again at Pummers Fell Terrier and those early dogs of Frank Buck.... Almost Border!!!

 

Coat....

....Again, going back twenty plus years I can recall Borders and Border types with some serious jackets on 'em! Harsh fur with skin like a feckin Rino, honestly, some almost wouldn't feel real..! To me this was/is important, put a dog in a soaking drain in February at 7am with a open type coat and that dog would be in a feckin mess by 3pm!

I once spoke to Cyril Tyson, in my teens, just after 'Fell Terrier' had been published and a mate went up for a Terrier pup, when we were there, and what a Gentleman, his main conversation was about improving the coats on his dogs (we took it that working ability was a given and it was!!) and now 'everyone' wants a massive head! I wish now I would have stayed and listened longer.... His words seem to have come right....

 

Anyways.... thats my ramblings on why people 'used' to cross these two, please feel free to pull it apart, i'm no expert!

 

Cheers

 

Bosun, you're a star mate... now that's the type of answer I was looking for.. sensible direct and constructive...

and all this in short tongue means...........................................................................

................................................................................

.

................................................................................

.

...................................................................improvement.

[swanseajack 228]

swanseajack what was the reason for adding lakeland to your beddlingtons was it to bring the height down a shade or was ther another reason ifso what and was it productive saying that it must off been if your still keeping the same line.

It was my mate who used the lakeland to put into the bedlington, and his reason for this was the head on the bedlington was snipey, coat wasnt that good either, he had seen the dog in question working, temperament, head, coat etc and decided of his own back to use this specific dog,,, (Middleton bred 'Nailer') at that time George Newcombe didnt agree with him and was loath to use a middleton bred dog. We took the pups up to George and believe it or not the man bought a pup of my mate. I don't think George actually used the bitch in question as part of his breeding plan, and possibly bought it out of curiosity.

 

So I guess the answer to the question is coat and head....