Inherited or trainable?

[Guest blackntan]

Ok so you think you can train any terrier to go to ground, find, stay, mix and battle with his quarry usually much bigger than itself?? I don't think so. If that was the case every lad that wants a good earth dog could buy any terrier and follow a simple step by step train your earthdog programme. These dogs are not like a retriever or a bushing dog, any dog can bush, retrievers can be trained, ratters can pick up their trade from watching other dogs, but tell me how you train a dog to do what a terrier does several feet below ground????????? Even a terrier tied at a dig does not know what goes on under the soil. IMO it is an inbuilt instinct that can at times maybe surface in certain individual dogs, which I'm sure we'll hear about, ie;the pet that I rescued and it was a great digging dog or the pet that I had that took to it like a duck to water!! Look how many dogs fail each year, and how many actually make the grade to be worthy of breeding from. To say that finding, staying and sticking to the task is a behaviour that can be learned by a dog sounds good, but I do not think it is possible unless the genetics or instinct is there THE DOG WILL NOT WANT TO DO IT.

None of my terriers sit or stay or walk on command, but they do their job as NATURE intended, I manage them as best I can and give them the best nutrition I can. But to train them to do what they do?? They do it because they WANT to, not because of training. You cannot compare human training and the instincts of an earthdog. JMO.

A BREATH OF FRESH AIR

[alimac 882]

eamon, i knew some fecker would start, and as it happens it was you ....if you would be so kind go back to the original post that started this thread, it states WORKING DOGS not just working terriers, yes it may be in the terrier section but i answered to the the question that was written. lets hope your season starts soon so you can vent your frustrations out on your shovel instead of your key board

 

just to add you can feck the best bred terrier in the world up if you dont bring it up well showing it differents stuff at different ages, so yes in my opinion there is still a way a owner can increase the chances of sucsess of making a good dog..

 

Why not put the topic in working dog health and training then?

 

who knows

[rolly 0]

at this time nothing safe he will attack other dogs and hates sheep with a passion even ........any ideas guys

 

 

A bullet or extreme shock therapy with an e-collar. Dog aggression is not tolerable in a working dog of any type. Livestock breaking can be easily done with an e-collar. I'd cut my loses and move on him.

[rolly 0]

On the original topic: a smart dogman told me "they will reproduce the average of their litter". This makes a lot of sense as superstar dogs of average litters usually produce average litters. While an average worker from a litter of superstars will be a solid reproducer of solid above average dogs. Breed not important. Many of the world's best dogs don't reproduce worth a damn. Check out Gr. Nite Champion coonhounds. They get studded to 100's of females and only a few actually turn out superstar litters. The vast majority will be average dogs, especially when bred to average females. Same with terriers. Boris was a superstar dog in the states and was a very low % reproducer. Great dog himself, but very few good offspring as the result. Boris's littermates were average dogs. Solid workers, but nothing spectacular (according to those in the KNOW). I think traits are mostly inheirted. Training will make a better dog with what you started with. If you start with crap, you can only increase the amount of crap you have.

 

The dogs in my yard are the result of somebody taking the best workers of working litters and breeding them to the same and culling those that don't work. To me, training is just helping something reach it's potential. I think more potential lies in well bred working bred dogs, than random bred dogs that produce individual superstars.

 

Just my opinion, but it works for me to stick the rule.

Edited August 30, 2008 by rolly

[dogrun 2]

If you had the choice of one what would it be? a well bred dog badly trained or a poorly bred, well trained dog?

 

if we are talking terriers i would opt for a well bred terrier , the reason being .....it is almost impossible to train a terrier to go to ground , find , stay or hold ....any piece of cr*p can go to ground and bay

 

on the other hand if we are talking lurchers , i have seen poorly bred dogs catch and retrieve and i have well bred dogs in my kennels ....as you allready now because you've seen them work

 

have you sold all the doodle pups ???

 

so what your saying there is that all baying dogs are crap and none are well bred ? yet they still have to find there quarry, and they still stay and usually latch on when you break through, so a well bred dog does it differently !? how ? and the training, yes stock training, and guidance but when its under the sod, training doesnt come into it !

Edited August 31, 2008 by dogrun

[Running 7]

Good Genetics produce the abilty to do the job the training gives it the focss and exprience to do the job properly (imo)

[undisputed 1,664]

personaly i think in terriers you need to have it breed in to them like scent said. but in lurchers i think it is 50/50 because you need the dog to have the talent there but you also need to work the dog to keep it fit so the ability can shine. for example a pro footballer has the ability but he still needs to train to keep him fit and on the ball.

 

But he aint born with the ability to play football is he needs to be learned

[Guest bitsa lurcher]

If you had the choice of one what would it be? a well bred dog badly trained or a poorly bred, well trained dog?

 

if we are talking terriers i would opt for a well bred terrier , the reason being .....it is almost impossible to train a terrier to go to ground , find , stay or hold ....any piece of cr*p can go to ground and bay

 

on the other hand if we are talking lurchers , i have seen poorly bred dogs catch and retrieve and i have well bred dogs in my kennels ....as you allready now because you've seen them work

 

have you sold all the doodle pups ???

 

so what your saying there is that all baying dogs are crap and none are well bred ? yet they still have to find there quarry, and they still stay and usually latch on when you break through, so a well bred dog does it differently !? how ? and the training, yes stock training, and guidance but when its under the sod, training doesnt come into it !

 

 

 

find quarry stay and "usually latch on when you break through" exactly my point , the cr*p terrier has no bottle and will only get stuck in when he/she knows there is back up in the form of the owner "breaking through" where as a well bred proper terrier will find , stay , get hold of and stay put until the owner "breaks through" ....now how do you train your terriers to do that underground ???

[kozzi 0]

The BEST dog is the one which has the greatest hereditary potentiality (genotype), that is the one best style to transmit... Many specimens of a breed may resemble another in general appearance (phenotype) but differ entirely in hereditary and potentiality (genotype)... The most unreliable individual (Genetically and from a breeder's point of view) is the one having the most unrelated ancestors in it's pedigree."

 

Sadly not by me - Phillip Gruenig, one of the founding breeders of the modern day Dobermann.

It has been said here on this forum many times before, that I have seen anyway: "proven dog to proven dog gets the results" Increase the risk with a one-off dog with no proven ancestry, or two proven lines that breed the same day-in day-out?

My male has international champions from grandfather backwards on each side, both his mum and dad were imported from Italy and Slovakia for their potential to improve the british gene pool, both working and showing.

My bitch also has world and int champions from grandparents backwards, her parents were also imported from Holland.

The bitch has more working lines, the male more show...together I hope they will produce confirmation with good working ability. I will try to post some pics one day.

Cheers