White Lakeland?

[The Breeder 156]

I'd like to begin this new topic by saying that Gary Middleton is a good friend of mine, and has been for the last 30 years or so. Myself, D.Roberts, R.Walker, G.Allott and B.Flemming, all had Gary's line of terriers, and at various times had a white pup in our litters, from black & tan parents. This was back in the late 70's and mid 's. I believe this was due to in-breeding.

 

In the early to mid 's, on one of my many visit's to Gary, a smooth pedigree Fox Terrier dog was running around in his yard, a cheeky little thing as Gary discribed him( I think it was owned by people staying in one of Gary's holiday cottages, at that time). After a day of hunting we ended up in a pub, as you do, and talked about the dog's we used that day and how they worked, also the subject of breeding came up. Refering back to the little Fox Terrier in his yard, he said given the chance, he thought it might work, as it seemed up for it. He then surprised me by saying he would even consider putting it across one of his black & tan bitches - Judy, if I remember right? Quite shocked I asked Gary why he would do such a thing, he said using a pedigree dog with no working ability and pure bred, would not produce any faults i.e. bad mouths etc, and the white would be dominant. The working ability he said, could be bred back into the line in a couple of generations. Just thinking the beer was talking, I thought no more about it. I went back 8 to 12 months later to visit again and in the kennels were a couple of white hybrid pups, I would think about 5/6 months old. I asked Gary what are these? he said just something I'm messing around with. Could this have been the start of the White Lakelands of today?????? Be nice to know your views! I know alot of these puppies went to Ireland and became excellent workers. If Gary did do this, I personally don't think he did anything wrong, as long as they remained workers! Remember - Fred Barker had done the same thing back in the early 1900's. He took a few Fox Terriers with him from Devon, when he moved to Cumbria, and this after all, along with Anthony Barker and Sid Wilkinson, was the foundation of Gary's breeding.

 

If this was so wrong, why are there so many of you breeding - Lakeland/Russell, Border/Lakeland, Russell/Patterdale, surely you must all be hypocripes. I personally only breed true to type i.e. Border/Border. Lakeland/Lakeland, this is my opinion for keeping the lines straight.

 

Also just to keep the records straight, and as Gary is getting a bit forgetful, I bred JOCK (picture can be seen of him in The Middleton Strain of Working Terrier). I sold Jock, along with his litter brother- Rip, both black & tan dogs, both extremely hard - Jock killing a full grown fox at 8 months old. The reason I sold them at the time, we were moving house and was dogged out. I sold them to Gary when they were 12/14 months old. D.Roberts took Jock for a season and said he was very hard and a 100% digging dog.

 

Going back to the White Lakeland, would like to hear from anyone with opinions on the subject.

 

P.S. I would like to thank my grandaughter for her help with writing this topic, as I am crap with putting pen to paper and finger to keyboard.

[donnyc 1,203]

No I dont think it was the start as you yourself said you had odd ones crop up..Also remember at a Fell and Moorland show back in the seventies J Campbell put a white bitch in front of me which was a very tidy type it was out of his line of blacks.I just think the oldtimers wouldnt concern themselves to colour but more to working ability ..Lot different to todays russell breeders just putting the blood in to get a better shape.JMO .Edited to add maybe GM was looking at it long term whereas most now only look as far as the next rossette

[Guest busterdog]

No I dont think it was the start as you yourself said you had odd ones crop up..Also remember at a Fell and Moorland show back in the seventies J Campbell put a white bitch in front of me which was a very tidy type it was out of his line of blacks.I just think the oldtimers wouldnt concern themselves to colour but more to working ability ..Lot different to todays russell breeders just putting the blood in to get a better shape.JMO .Edited to add maybe GM was looking at it long term whereas most now only look as far as the next rossette

HAD A BITCH SOLD TO ME IN MY YOUTH, 'S MIDDLETON BRED. LINED SAID BITCH WITH WELL KNOW BLACK DOG ,GOT ONE BLACK BITCH ONE B&T FIVE BLACK AND WHITE LAKIES.

[shinyspade 2]

the thing here is the whites used in the old lines where tested workers. and it wasnt done behind closed doors. how many of the offspring are in working kennels. unbeknown to the owners. i think anyone can breed there dogs any way they like. as long as it is done openly and honestly. so if fOX TERRIER apears on the peds good luck to him. if not then why not

[Guest blackntan]

you only have to look at the russell classes at the great yorkshire or lowther, over 50% last year were lakeys /fells, i dont have a problem with them being white lakey/fell but do with them being called russells, like ive said before the working terrier is a melting pot of cross breds, over the years many have tried and tested different types , some have tried to standidise there line , but nature has its way and every now and again will throw up a tri colour or a white , out of a long line of black and tan x black and tan , the working fell /lakey, black,black and tan , tan, red, white, who cares we all have are favorite colour , as long as they do the job , there is no sutch thing as a pedigree just records of types and may it all ways be so , many will disagree and say they have a pure line prove it show me records not hear say and rumour , this argument has gone on for many years and will for many more,

[ginga john 268]

Just to add to the theory:

back in the late eighties / early ninetys i bred a full bred Nuttal bitch to a half bred Middleton dog, both were black with the dog being rough coated.

out of a litter of five pups three were black with white feet and chests but two were all white rough coated with a bit of black around the head.

they were i suppose by todays standards "russel types" but these dogs were three quarter patterdale and a quarter lakeland or red fell whichever you feel the middleton dogs were.

that was a long time since and the white colouration does seem to keep returning with "white lakelands" popping up more and more.

Just to add to the thread am i the only person on here who thinks that a patterdale should be smooth coated? ie: Nuttal type?

i see a lot of (and even own one) what i describe as black fells ie a rough or wire coated dog being spoken about or adbvertised as a patterdales.

i also had a red dog of garys line back then, absolute f##king lunatic, hard as nails but lacking in nose and manners!!!

 

all the best

 

 

GJ

[CumbrianJack 2]

I have a photo taken in 1896 with my gt grandfather holding a white terrier from our line, the picture was taken just after a hunt, also has some black dogs in it, was taken at Coniston i believe.

People back then used to breed worker to worker so in all honesty you could get anything cropping up in time, remember the blues Frank Buck had crop up out of his blacks.

[sniper 30]

I have a photo taken in 1896 with my gt grandfather holding a white terrier from our line, the picture was taken just after a hunt, also has some black dogs in it, was taken at Coniston i believe.

People back then used to breed worker to worker so in all honesty you could get anything cropping up in time, remember the blues Frank Buck had crop up out of his blacks.

my father used to breed terriers. i think they were patt x's in the 50-60's. and they used to work to fox ect ect. and the odd one was white.

i like the dog in youre avatar mate

[Tiny 7 1,694]

Any pic's of any white lakeland's.... Atb T 7

[CumbrianJack 2]

i like the dog in youre avatar mate

 

Thanks, shes a cracking bitch, shows her slight lakie ancestry in the head though.

[sniper 30]

i like the dog in youre avatar mate

 

Thanks, shes a cracking bitch, shows her slight lakie ancestry in the head though.