WTF

[Guest bitsa lurcher]

you have made some valued points "chris" and i do apologise idf i seemed a little harsh in my attitude above , it's just the way it seemed to me is bo**ox to those of us with criminal records we derserve what we get . and that in front of me on my screen got up my nose . yes granted there are those of us with criminal records that don't deserve to have a tin of pellets let alone the rifle to go with them . these are the people who just do not learn from there mistakes and keep on reaffending . i have kept my nose clean for 25 years and still i'm told not to bother filling out an application form for a shot gun permit .

A good point was made above about having compulsory basic training for air guns (like motorbikes) i for one would sign up for this kind of training to be able to keep my air rifle . another thought or idea for change could be advanced training after passing the first . therefore a person could prove he/she is a responsible adult that derserves to be in a postition of carrying a rifle of 12+ ft lbs .

A nice pipe dream for me i think , because at the end of the day who is going to speak up for those of us with criminal records " why should we affect your sport " ???

the bottom line is this ..the goverment will do what they like whether you like it or not ,that much was proved with the fox hunting legislation ... the next thing is air guns to be banned or fac ticketed which ever is the same result for me . i will be shooting outside of the law so i might aswell go and get the neccersary items needed to tune my hw80 . and risk having a 5 year stretch .... on the other hand i could sell my air rifle and give up

[droid 11]

It's not reasonable people like Chris that are the problem, bitsa. or indeed reasonable people like you.

It's the pretend poachers and amateur Rambo's that boast/hint at illegally upping the power of their guns that are the problem. They need to wind their necks in a bit and engage brain before posting.

 

There are at least two people on here that I would NEVER buy a gun off because of amateur 'gunsmithing'

[ChrisJones 7,975]

Thank you for your explaination of the VCR bill. I was aware of the age limit, and he would be supervised anyway. It's our easiest route for him to continue shooting on a more regular basis, as a youngster. I want to encourage him, and as I simply cannot do the 4.10 route, which is his preferred gun, this is the compromise! The air rifle will of course belong to me, I wouldn't get it if it were not for him, and it will be him using it, and as I said, he will be under constant supervision when doing so. So I hope that puts us in the clear!

Sounds like you'll be fine but that's how easy it is to be on the wrong side of it. I mean we live in a society where an armed response unit will pull over a mother, and her kids, on the school run... because someone reported a gun to the police. A child's toy!

 

With regard to the hunting ban, to be fair, the CA started thie rallies long before that day in Westminster. The compromises that were spoken of, were such things as dis-continuing the use of red coats, avoiding subsciptions and generally anything that showed that we enjoyed out sport. Utterly pointless. The "toff" image of hunting a pack of hounds was tackled as best it could have been, with people from all walks of life being paraded about as proof "normal" sorts enjoyed it too. In my opinion, there is little more the Countryside Alliance could have done. The grittier stuff, left to the "real Counryside Alliance" was interesting for a while, some of it I thoroughly enjoyed, some of it I thought stupid.

The thing that really turned me off, to the Countryside Alliance, is when I saw the empty cases of champagne outside their tent, at two of the game fairs. That's our donation money. In a time when PR is paramount they do something like that. They took money from people who can't really afford it and pissed it up the wall. They ditched the terrier and lurcher lads as soon as they could, a sacrificial lamb to preserve the tradition of mounted foxhunting. I will never give them support/money because of that. The organised rallies only gathered momentum when we really believed we were in trouble. By that time we were on the slide. They've constantly turned down ideas from people outside the CA, only to reinvent them as their own. They're simply an elitist organisation based on self preservation.

 

For the record the Burns Inquiry backed us all the way. The toff image was what hurt and wasn't helped by the CA's champagne consumption at their rallies. They won't get another penny out of me.

 

Our problems as a community lie in lack of eduaction. Rather than crippling our sports with nonsensical restrictions, promises to look like tramps and become socialists, how much better if a group of intelligent, eloquent people were sent around our schools and colleges with the intention of educating the general public about vermin control? This is what I would like to see the CA organising, not rural heroes. It is ridiculous to go on patting ourselves on the back for being hunters, when it's only us listening!

This is what I'm getting at. Airguns don't need licensing but some sort of proficiency needs to be obtained. Airgun crime is now counted separately from firearms incidents, because there is that much happening. Call me cynical but it looks like an organised attempt to document it in order to support new legislation. Fact remains that if we don't come up with something realistic, and workable, then we'll have to accept what our anti shooting MP's want. We're torn between doing too little and being over ruled and doing to much and slitting our own throats. It's a difficult position but bigger changes are coming. Anyone effected by the 2005 ruling should at least have an idea of what is to come.

 

We don't have a written constitution that protects firearms so we're at the whim of the ruling party of the day. More sections of the public want these restrictions putting in place and their voices are very very loud. They're in a minority yet they grab national and international headlines... does any of this sound familiar to anyone?

 

I have to disagree with you on your prediction on the furture of a repeal. It is what all our attentions should be focused on. I know a couple of Conservative MP's personaly, and they have both assured me that as a party, they will repeal it. Now, I'm not completely stupid, politicians are tricksy buggers, but it is a chance worth hoping and working for. The apathy showed by some "hunters" is incredible. All I can conclude is that they don't care as much as they should. Just before the last general election, the Master where I was at the time, was loading us into coaches and sending us off round london to aid the Tory campaign. It certainly helped and hopefully, with the economy being in the situation it is, and general anti-Brown feeling, they stand a much better chance this time round. How many people off this site will be volunteering their services? If enough of us help, they are almost backed into a corner to give us what we want, and if they didn't...well, time for the real CA to come back out of the box. In any case, it's our best shot, and should be fought for wholeheartedly.

We'll have to agree to disagree because I have absolutely no faith in a Tory repeal of the bill. The main reason being that they implemented three of the biggest restrictions on shooting, while they've been in power. The Firearms 68 Act, the 88 Amendment and they drew up the 97 Amendment, which Tony Blair rubber stamped. While I have mixed feelings on these laws the point is that the Tories are pro-shooting and have done more to restrict it than any other party. Class still plays a big part in politics. As much as they don't want it to and we don't want it to, the Tories are still seen as voice of the money.

 

I've spoken to all my local Tory candidates since 1997 and they've all assured me that they want to repeal the bill. But they'll say that because they want my vote. Basically the reason I don't trust them is because their lips are moving. I still maintain that a Tory repeal won't happen. Even when in power they have to get the parliamentary time to undo it and that will gain severe opposition in a time when there are far more pressing issues. The best chance is that we have a Home Secretary that will allow a degree of tolerance and will instruct varying police departments to wind it in.

 

That is an extremely important point, and one that is rather ignored by a substantial minority on here.

THL might be like a conversation in the pub to some, but everything posted here is here until deleted by Mods. It can be read by anyone and can be saved to disc, printed out or passed on. You might as well post your comments on a 20m hoarding next to a Motorway. it's that open.

 

We are NOT having private conversations.

 

I can only add to this that the server caches all posts and they're still on it even after we delete them. It's designed to protect the hosting company from legal action. Mods can only remove it from the public. We can't stop it being cached or being used by a third party. It's unlikely but it is possible.

[ChrisJones 7,975]

you have made some valued points "chris" and i do apologise idf i seemed a little harsh in my attitude above , it's just the way it seemed to me is bo**ox to those of us with criminal records we derserve what we get . and that in front of me on my screen got up my nose .

Sorry it came across that way but that is absolutely not what I'm trying to say or achieve. I'm trying to pre-empt a total ban on airguns by offering a workable solution to the current.

 

Only a total ban will see me not using air guns any more. I won't have a problem getting an FAC because I already have one. This isn't to stick it in your face, I simply want to alert people to the dangers of complacency and try to come to an agreement that will protect the sport for all. Me, you, foxyjo, my kids, your kids, etc.

 

I'm the least likely to be effected by it but that doesn't stop me doing something about it.

 

yes granted there are those of us with criminal records that don't deserve to have a tin of pellets let alone the rifle to go with them . these are the people who just do not learn from there mistakes and keep on reaffending . i have kept my nose clean for 25 years and still i'm told not to bother filling out an application form for a shot gun permit .

That's unfortunate but that's what will happen if they make the rules for us. My ticket for an air rifle would require a proficiency test on safety, storage, marksmanship, and repair/maintenance. I think that the politicians would go for it. I think it's workable and it wouldn't effect you apart from passing the course.

 

A good point was made above about having compulsory basic training for air guns (like motorbikes) i for one would sign up for this kind of training to be able to keep my air rifle .

Win, win from where I'm sat.

 

another thought or idea for change could be advanced training after passing the first . therefore a person could prove he/she is a responsible adult that derserves to be in a postition of carrying a rifle of 12+ ft lbs .

Exactly what I was getting at. Truly a step forward for common sense laws.

 

A nice pipe dream for me i think , because at the end of the day who is going to speak up for those of us with criminal records " why should we affect your sport " ???

Me! That's what I'm getting at! The point is that if we sit back and shrug our shoulders we're going to get banned. Apathy will kill airgunning the same way it did foxhunting. At least this way we have a slim chance of getting something workable. I'd rather we dictate what happens than the actions of someone like Mark Bonini

 

The sad fact is that if they allow it to go on their form of ticket you'll never legally hold an air rifle again. I don't want that but like I said, it won't effect me.

 

the bottom line is this ..the goverment will do what they like whether you like it or not ,that much was proved with the fox hunting legislation ... the next thing is air guns to be banned or fac ticketed which ever is the same result for me . i will be shooting outside of the law so i might aswell go and get the neccersary items needed to tune my hw80 . and risk having a 5 year stretch .... on the other hand i could sell my air rifle and give up

If it comes to that I'll be handing mine in. This forum disappears. The airgun community dissolves and once more decent law abiding people are marginalised at the whim of an ignorant band of politicians. I sincerely believe a complete ban is avoidable but the longer we leave it the lions share of that time slips away.

 

Failure, for me, is not an option. I want to see this sport continue, legally, and like with hunting with dogs I will continue to work towards it and push my agenda in a forum where I'm allowed to.

 

It's not reasonable people like Chris that are the problem, bitsa. or indeed reasonable people like you.

It's the pretend poachers and amateur Rambo's that boast/hint at illegally upping the power of their guns that are the problem. They need to wind their necks in a bit and engage brain before posting.

 

There are at least two people on here that I would NEVER buy a gun off because of amateur 'gunsmithing'

 

I agree on both counts.

[droid 11]

The little lad died, just heard on the radio.

[Guest bitsa lurcher]

it is a very sad fact that the little lad died as a result of complete stupidity on his fathers behalf .

 

 

chris you are making a lot of sense .... as i have said above ... i for one would be willing to take up any form of training course / test what ever . i just don't want to be in the position of taking stupid risks with a prison sentance over my head every time i go for a shoot with my air rifle .

 

good luck with it all , if there is anything i can do to help ???

[Grim Reaper 1]

The little lad died, just heard on the radio.

 

AHH . . . . FECK!!!!

 

 

Grim.

[Guest foxyjo.]

How terrible...

 

That poor poor family.

 

May the little chap sleep peacefully.

[Fidgety 8]

Terrible news for the family.

 

Ok Chris, how do we action this??

[fraggle 4]

bit tired now so will add more later, to be honest i think the idea of a basic test will not work, why? have you seen the kids who pass the cbt then get given the keys to there bikes, most will all ride like complete idiots and crash all over, but as this is a motorbike the goverment never see it as a problem, but as its a rifle and that word rifle to everyone out side of the hunting world means death. all it would take is one muppet to do the test and then shoot some one and every one will kick off again. I dont want a ban on this but my idea is along the FAC where you must have permision to shoot before you can have it. maybe a letter giving by the police that could then be filled in by the farmer, where the police then check you do get the permision and you can take that letter to buy the rifle. this will then help cut down some of the idiots because we all know how hard it is to gain permison. plus a farmer will not just give it out willey nilley because he knows the police will call.

 

I'm sure there are many other ideas out there. but i think more than compulsary test should be done.

[SEAN3513 7]

the age old problem....................the minority spoiling it for the majority.

 

its a very sad outcome..........the worst !!!

 

hopefully somthing will be done to educate the public at large.................whatever happend to the public information broadcasts that we used to see on the TV???? remember......charlie say's etc etc.

 

it would be a start and it has to be high profile, not confined to the pages of the internet.

 

i would like to see a form of relaxed FAC for airguns, that said, would it solve the problem????....probably not!!!

 

education, education, education.

 

cheers all

 

sean

[Guest bigredbusa]

now get the father in court and make an example of him !!! what kind of idiot would leave a loaded gun about in front of a five year old ?

 

yes a bairn got killed but it is that sort of person who does not deserve to own a pistol in the first place and it will be another notch towards licencing of airguns.

[Coney 3]

yet again , a tragedy because of stupid people. never ever leave a LOADED AND COCKED gun lying around. I mean, if it was just loaded i can kind-of understand, but cocked too! It beggars belief. I hope that the youngster makes it and recoers well and that this will teach others not to make the same mistakes.....jD

 

 

[Grim Reaper 1]

It is my opinion that the father (the stupid barstard that he is) should now, without excuse or fear, be prosecuted and tried for firearms offences in this matter, as well as manslaughter - he deserves so much to have the whole bloody book thrown at him!!

 

The phone rings . . . . so bloody what!? If my phone should ring whilst i am using my air rifle, I'm afraid that its a case of "oh well, if its important, they will ring back in a minute" - that would give me time to lock it away; or failing that, i would keep the air rifle in my posession while answering the said 'phone call.

 

Its not exactly rocket science now . . . . . is it!??

 

If you [the reader] feels offended by my opinion on this, then for that I appologise; but I certainly will make no appologies for having an opinion, or airing it, for that matter. I am ashamed to call this arsewipe a father, for I am one myself (a father, that is! ), but the difference between that arsehole and me is that i place no limit on the value of MY children's lives.

 

In the course of my job, on a personal leveli have had to deal with the death of children, and of course that of babies also. There have been parents who deserved sympathy, for the unfortunate, untimely, but natural death of their child, and i did my very best to provide this. On the other side of the coin, there have also been parents who have deserved what justice was meted to them for what they had done - caused the death of their baby or child - I am afraid that this idiot fall into this second category.

 

A point of interest - I am still involved, as a witness 'Post Mortem' in a similar case that went to Coroner's court a few years ago - parents caused the death.

 

 

[RANT OVER]

 

Sorry guys and gals.

 

 

 

Regards,

Grim.

Edited September 2, 2008 by Grim Reaper

[kristian 9]

This is a tragedy! i feel for the family it's a terrible thing to happen. I think that the father made a mistake and he has to live with this for the rest of his life and if it was me i wouldn't be about for long as the guilt would kill me! I'm probably a bit overcausious when it comes to the airguns, i got them all locked up with alarms on the cupboard bit overboard i suppose but you can never be to careful with the children. I think anyone with any type of weapon should keep it under lock and key if there are kids in the house. RIP LITTLE ONE!