Pedigree Dogs On BBC 1

[BlueCoyote 0]

this was what i was trying to say on the matter. there isnt much point in breeding a dog that is supposed to just stand around and look pretty, not in the working dog world.

 

and who gives a shiny steaming pile of CRAP if the toy breeds all look like mutts?! they dont do anything right? who cares if they all look the same as long as they are healthy??

 

Every breed of dogs have been bred for type ...Cockers to Bull x ...every one who breeds think they know best ,the difference between a l show breeders and working breeders is that working breeds are not stuck in a cul de sac ,We try to breed faults out which effect the working skills of the dog ,we want a dog to perform on the field.We aint going to spend 2 years training something to die of a genetic fault 5 years down the line...the show breeders not all of them will breed for type whether or not this effects the health and welfare of the dog..To get the desired results they will line breed not just once but several times ,this is what gives them the type stamp of offspring they know will give them in the show ring.By doing this and rewarding them with titles rosettes and expensive studs will give them a ever decreasing gene pool,and subsquently the show variants of the working breeds will come knocking on the door of working dog variants to inject new blood. This is happening with labradors and English Springers though they will never admit to it. They will use an out cross then breed back.

 

I can only talk for the Springer Cocker and Lab these working beeds are far away from the breed standard of the Show dog and there will never be a dual Champion of both show and working in these breeds...

 

 

Just my twopence worth

 

Listed below some of the faults and RC Test for Springers and Cockers...

 

ESS:

 

Heart – Patent Ductus Arteriosus

 

Coagulation Disorders – Factor XI (Rarely)

 

Phosphofructokinase (PFK) – Affected

 

 

 

Increased Risk of Diabetes Mellitus

 

 

 

Eyes – Cataracts (Juvenille, Congenital, and Adult)

 

Corneal Dystrophy (Epithelial/Stromal)

 

Ectropion

 

Entropion

 

Persistent Pupillary Membranes (PPM) (Occurs)

 

Generalized PRA (Progressive Rod-Cone Degeneration) – later onset (usually older than 1 year)

 

Central PRA – Retinal Pigment Epithelial Dystrophy (RPED)

 

Retinal Dysplasia – Folds

 

Retinal Dysplasia – Geographic

 

 

 

Skin - Cutaneous Asthenia (Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome) – rare disorder also seen in mixed breeds (Occurs)*

 

Follicular Dysplasia

 

Fold Dermatitis and Skinfold Pyoderma (Affected – Lip Fold)

 

Psoriasiformlichenoid Dermatosis

 

 

 

Seborrhea

 

 

 

Hearing - Deafness (Reported less commonly)

 

 

 

Hypodysmyelinogenesis (“Shaking puppyâ€) – uncommon but affects English Springer Spaniels and Samoyeds most severely

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

English Cocker Spaniel:

 

 

 

Heart – Cardiomyopathy (Important)

 

 

 

Eyes - Cataracts (Juvenille)

 

Ectropion

 

Entropion

 

Eyelash Abnormalities – Distichiasis (Extra eyelashes grow on inside of the eyelid) – Common

 

Glaucoma – Goniodysgenesis

 

Imperforate Lacrimal Punctum

 

Keratoconjunctivitis Sicca (KCS) (Dry Eye) – Predisposition for development

 

Persistent Pupillary Membranes (PPM) – Occurs

 

Generalized PRA (Progressive Rod-cone Degeneration) – later onset (usually older than one year)

 

Central PRA – Retinal Pigment Epithelial Dystrophy (RPED)

 

 

 

Ears - Congenital Deafness and Vestibular Disease (Reported)

 

 

 

Chronic Hepatitis

 

 

 

Familial Kidney Disease (Hereditary Nephritis)

[Dawn B 212]

Really? Like Cavaliers etc... you mean?

 

I said MOST, not all Dawn, don't get all defensive....

Nope Im not being defensive I just asked you a question. Im putting forward a differing view, one I see as fitting to the thread.

[Malt 379]

Really? Like Cavaliers etc... you mean?

 

I said MOST, not all Dawn, don't get all defensive....

Nope Im not being defensive I just asked you a question. Im putting forward a differing view, one I see as fitting to the thread.

Point taken.

[BlueCoyote 0]

Really? Like Cavaliers etc... you mean?

 

I said MOST, not all Dawn, don't get all defensive....

Nope Im not being defensive I just asked you a question. Im putting forward a differing view, one I see as fitting to the thread.

Point taken.

i'm pretty sure they showed the baddest of the bad when they made that documentary. they DID mention some breeders/showers who are doing the best they can but they're held up by restrictions in the standard.... that alone is a warning bell..... if doing the right thing is considered wrong then its time to start a new club!!

 

i think the bigger issue isnt even being mentioned... they hinted at it though....they dont want to turn away or ruffle the feathers of its members because.... *gasp!* a lot of people would be out of jobs!

[BlueCoyote 0]

some one from youtube tried to justify those wonky legged german shepherds by saying this

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1LyjlX4Mp8

 

ObedienceIreland (3 hours ago) Show Hide

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Reply | Spam

In regard to German Shepherds - Yes the breeding is terrible - But the German Shepherds for the show ring are actually trained to walk like that on the lead - This makes them look more symetrical and also leads to them walking incorrectly. I currently do not show my GSD'S but I have in the past and thakfully I WAS ONE OF THE BREEDERS WHO DONE IT RIGHT AND ALL OF MY DOGS HAD NO PROBLEMS........

if it was symmetrical then wouldnt it have a symmetrical walk to match?

[BlueCoyote 0]

I thought and thought and thought , and Blue, I still agree with you!!!

I dont think theres an excuse for breeding physically unhealthy dogs that die young or suffer just so they look like someones idea of perfection.

 

The KC should be dealing with the issue and making a stand by not letting such messed up dogs anywhere near a show.

 

They are all perverted if they enjoy looking at dogs that can't even stand properly. :sick:

 

the dog people in the other forum i go to just cant seem to stomach the idea of comparing the kennel clubs to nazis. one of the women there wont even spell the word. she says "n*zi" instead.. i dont know if thats what bothers her or if its the fact that she could possibly be lumped into the group of sadists.. she breeds those shorty beagles, and i didnt see them mentioned....

 

she and i never have seen eye to eye.. since the day i joined that forum i've been saying the show dogs have been lamed by the kennel clubs... thats also another reason why i'm here.... WORKING DOGS!! what a breath of freakin fresh air!!

[Dawn B 212]

Really? Like Cavaliers etc... you mean?

 

I said MOST, not all Dawn, don't get all defensive....

Nope Im not being defensive I just asked you a question. Im putting forward a differing view, one I see as fitting to the thread.

Point taken.

no probs.

 

I dont think theres an excuse for breeding physically unhealthy dogs that die young or suffer just so they look like someones idea of perfection.

Thats an interesting statement Nastki, dont you think thats exactly what Lurcher and Terrier people do? Yet they frequently cross litter brother and sister, mother to son and father to daughter, and often comment that things like retained testicles and undershot jaws dont matter, how is that ok? The genetisist clearly said that in a couple generations such close breeding would mean animals developing SERIOUS auto immune defficiencies, plus the inherited faults like undershot jaws would be so much worse resulting in real health issues. Do you think its acceptable that because a dog can kill a Fox, its justified to mate it to its sibling because that can too?

 

I do think people that work dogs love to find faults in show dogs, its a shame, because the responsible breeders will always do the right thing, just as responsible Lurcher and terrier breeders will, people who breed dogs of any decription PROPERLY should be commended not slated.

[BlueCoyote 0]

the other thing that program pointed out was that the majority of these diseases were virtually non-existent until kennels organised and started breeding dogs for sport and profit. basically they ruined it for everyone.... the rich and elite were the "reputable breeders" of the day because they had money and time, happily drowning the mongrels and crossbreeds or ugly specimens.

the one man who said the basset hounds have improved since their beginnings is clearly not playing with a full deck! saying things like "if i bred a dog like that i would make sure never to breed another one just like it!"

<--losers??

and this pack of hounds would surely be kicked out of the show ring...

 

there is no debate on the fact that there are good and bad breeders on both sides.... but the show dog breeders SET THE STANDARD of breeding, that is what nearly everyone follows and look where its landed the dogs. you cant even get a healthy mutt anymore....

[Dawn B 212]

the other thing that program pointed out was that the majority of these diseases were virtually non-existent until kennels organised and started breeding dogs for sport and profit. basically they ruined it for everyone.... the rich and elite were the "reputable breeders" of the day because they had money and time, happily drowning the mongrels and crossbreeds or ugly specimens.

the one man who said the basset hounds have improved since their beginnings is clearly not playing with a full deck! saying things like "if i bred a dog like that i would make sure never to breed another one just like it!"

<--losers??

and this pack of hounds would surely be kicked out of the show ring...

 

there is no debate on the fact that there are good and bad breeders on both sides.... but the show dog breeders SET THE STANDARD of breeding, that is what nearly everyone follows and look where its landed the dogs. you cant even get a healthy mutt anymore....

The reason the diseases were not around is because the dogs nor the verterinary science to recognise them wasnt either. Progress in the latter field has enabled much research and help into these diseases. The KC fund an awful lot of research, in fact a HUGE amount (ongoing) into diseases like the Cavaliers had, the program just "slightly" touched on that but didnt elaborate or give the full facts did they? What about CLAD in Irish Setters? KC funding has ERADICATED this disease totally from the breed, didnt mention that either!!

 

They just wanted to cause a stink and they have, unfortunately though, rescue centres are now inundated with calls for dogs needing to be taken in as they dont want the thought of these problems affecting their dogs, Cavalier rescue is overflowing with people wanting rid of their pets "in case" their dog has an episode like we saw, so all they have suceeded in doing is making hundreds more dogs homeless and putting further financial and emotion pressure on the organisations that are now forced to pick up the pieces.

[BlueCoyote 0]

the other thing that program pointed out was that the majority of these diseases were virtually non-existent until kennels organised and started breeding dogs for sport and profit. basically they ruined it for everyone.... the rich and elite were the "reputable breeders" of the day because they had money and time, happily drowning the mongrels and crossbreeds or ugly specimens.

the one man who said the basset hounds have improved since their beginnings is clearly not playing with a full deck! saying things like "if i bred a dog like that i would make sure never to breed another one just like it!"

<--losers??

and this pack of hounds would surely be kicked out of the show ring...

 

there is no debate on the fact that there are good and bad breeders on both sides.... but the show dog breeders SET THE STANDARD of breeding, that is what nearly everyone follows and look where its landed the dogs. you cant even get a healthy mutt anymore....

The reason the diseases were not around is because the dogs nor the verterinary science to recognise them wasnt either. Progress in the latter field has enabled much research and help into these diseases. The KC fund an awful lot of research, in fact a HUGE amount (ongoing) into diseases like the Cavaliers had, the program just "slightly" touched on that but didnt elaborate or give the full facts did they? What about CLAD in Irish Setters? KC funding has ERADICATED this disease totally from the breed, didnt mention that either!!

 

They just wanted to cause a stink and they have, unfortunately though, rescue centres are now inundated with calls for dogs needing to be taken in as they dont want the thought of these problems affecting their dogs, Cavalier rescue is overflowing with people wanting rid of their pets "in case" their dog has an episode like we saw, so all they have suceeded in doing is making hundreds more dogs homeless and putting further financial and emotion pressure on the organisations that are now forced to pick up the pieces.

 

sorry but nearly everything you just said was speculation. if the scientific technology didnt exist back then that doesnt mean the disease did or did not. there isnt much proof on it because not many people are going to dig up a bunch of dog bones buried before 1850.....

i've even asked before "did cancer and other problems exist and people just not notice it? thought the dog just died of old age" and no one could give me a straight answer except ",,,well maybe?"

 

and sure the KC has have done some good things but since you brought up the Irish Setter.... they eradicated one disease... oh wow! ...... what about the rest? i didnt see much intrigue or desire from those people to even want to TEST their dogs for possible defects. in fact they flat out refused or blatantly lied about it.

as for people inundating shelters and rescues... thats nothing knew is it? if those people would jump the gun over this sudden revelation then obviously they werent really good dog owners to start with. they would probably divorce their own spouse if they too became deathly ill..... i cant help it if there are a lot of flakes in the world.

if they had bothered to read the list of "Breed Defects" then this wouldnt be a shocker!

 

this is not NEWS unless you have been keeping your head under a rock.

 

 

not every KC breeder is bad. i'm not saying that. i'm not even saying the KC should be torn apart and forgotten..... i just think they need to rewrite their rules and improve the standards before allowing sickly dogs into the ring and telling the world "THIS IS OUR BEST SPECIMEN!"

Edited August 22, 2008 by BlueCoyote

[Guest ESS]

They just wanted to cause a stink and they have, unfortunately though, rescue centres are now inundated with calls for dogs needing to be taken in as they dont want the thought of these problems affecting their dogs, Cavalier rescue is overflowing with people wanting rid of their pets "in case" their dog has an episode like we saw, so all they have suceeded in doing is making hundreds more dogs homeless and putting further financial and emotion pressure on the organisations that are now forced to pick up the pieces.

 

Dawn you cant possibly blame the TV program over that.The point is there is a genuine reason for concern.The KC is big enough and wealthy enough to fight its corner.It has in the past turned its blind eye to the ever increasing light of scientific evidence that certain breeds are compromised genetically .No pups of certain breeds should be registered till Dna screening Of Sires and Dams and publish them on peds as per hip scores of parents this might weed the more downright dishonest breeder.The KC can also help pick up the pieces and aid the rescue organisations

 

Regards Steve

[shepp 2,285]

the other thing that program pointed out was that the majority of these diseases were virtually non-existent until kennels organised and started breeding dogs for sport and profit. basically they ruined it for everyone.... the rich and elite were the "reputable breeders" of the day because they had money and time, happily drowning the mongrels and crossbreeds or ugly specimens.

the one man who said the basset hounds have improved since their beginnings is clearly not playing with a full deck! saying things like "if i bred a dog like that i would make sure never to breed another one just like it!"

<--losers??

and this pack of hounds would surely be kicked out of the show ring...

 

there is no debate on the fact that there are good and bad breeders on both sides.... but the show dog breeders SET THE STANDARD of breeding, that is what nearly everyone follows and look where its landed the dogs. you cant even get a healthy mutt anymore....

The reason the diseases were not around is because the dogs nor the verterinary science to recognise them wasnt either. Progress in the latter field has enabled much research and help into these diseases. The KC fund an awful lot of research, in fact a HUGE amount (ongoing) into diseases like the Cavaliers had, the program just "slightly" touched on that but didnt elaborate or give the full facts did they? What about CLAD in Irish Setters? KC funding has ERADICATED this disease totally from the breed, didnt mention that either!!

 

They just wanted to cause a stink and they have, unfortunately though, rescue centres are now inundated with calls for dogs needing to be taken in as they dont want the thought of these problems affecting their dogs, Cavalier rescue is overflowing with people wanting rid of their pets "in case" their dog has an episode like we saw, so all they have suceeded in doing is making hundreds more dogs homeless and putting further financial and emotion pressure on the organisations that are now forced to pick up the pieces.

 

The best thing you can do with a cavalier is take a 12 bore to it along with most other toy breeds.

One thing that did accour to me was the lack of criticism from the vetenary society, i wonder if they welcome sick KC pedigree dogs, just think if all dogs were as healthy as mongrels and working lines then they would loose half of there income.

Shepp

[Guest ESS]

the other thing that program pointed out was that the majority of these diseases were virtually non-existent until kennels organised and started breeding dogs for sport and profit. basically they ruined it for everyone.... the rich and elite were the "reputable breeders" of the day because they had money and time, happily drowning the mongrels and crossbreeds or ugly specimens.

the one man who said the basset hounds have improved since their beginnings is clearly not playing with a full deck! saying things like "if i bred a dog like that i would make sure never to breed another one just like it!"

<--losers??

and this pack of hounds would surely be kicked out of the show ring...

 

there is no debate on the fact that there are good and bad breeders on both sides.... but the show dog breeders SET THE STANDARD of breeding, that is what nearly everyone follows and look where its landed the dogs. you cant even get a healthy mutt anymore....

The reason the diseases were not around is because the dogs nor the verterinary science to recognise them wasnt either. Progress in the latter field has enabled much research and help into these diseases. The KC fund an awful lot of research, in fact a HUGE amount (ongoing) into diseases like the Cavaliers had, the program just "slightly" touched on that but didnt elaborate or give the full facts did they? What about CLAD in Irish Setters? KC funding has ERADICATED this disease totally from the breed, didnt mention that either!!

 

They just wanted to cause a stink and they have, unfortunately though, rescue centres are now inundated with calls for dogs needing to be taken in as they dont want the thought of these problems affecting their dogs, Cavalier rescue is overflowing with people wanting rid of their pets "in case" their dog has an episode like we saw, so all they have suceeded in doing is making hundreds more dogs homeless and putting further financial and emotion pressure on the organisations that are now forced to pick up the pieces.

 

The best thing you can do with a cavalier is take a 12 bore to it along with most other toy breeds.

Nice reply .clear and rational.. there is a place for toy breeds not every one wants a Lurcher or Lab but want the companionship of a dog .The Cavalier can be sorted by the breeders it is in there own interest...

[Dawn B 212]

Dawn you cant possibly blame the TV program over that.The point is there is a genuine reason for concern.

The program has instilled fear into pet owners, just as the media did to Rottweiler and Pit Bull/Staff owners, if you think I am lying, please check out the relevant breed rescues and national welfare organisations taking in these dogs.

 

No pups of certain breeds should be registered till Dna screening Of Sires and Dams and publish them on peds as per hip scores of parents this might weed the more downright dishonest breeder.The KC can also help pick up the pieces and aid the rescue organisations

Yes but that goes for ALL breeders surely? How many on here breed staffs and the like? NO health screening at all, yet Staffs are affected with a lot of diseases, its always the same, if I dont see it, mine dont have it! DNA profiling, hip scoring and health tests ARE displayed on pedigrees, they are also displayed on KC registration certificates, have been for years! With regard to rescue, THEY DO!! AGAIN I ask you as well as Blue Coyote, please do your reseaech, you will be surprised.

 

 

sorry but nearly everything you just said was speculation. if the scientific technology didnt exist back then that doesnt mean the disease did or did not. there isnt much proof on it because not many people are going to dig up a bunch of dog bones buried before 1850.....

i've even asked before "did cancer and other problems exist and people just not notice it? thought the dog just died of old age" and no one could give me a straight answer except ",,,well maybe?"

Speculation? rubbish! If you dont know what a disease is, I agree it doesnt mean it isnt there, however, given that the program DID say that Syringymyelia is a recent disease, you probably wouldnt be finding that one anywhere pre about 1950! veterinary science is only just recognising diseases that we HAVE had for ages, for example Canine Epileptoid cramping syndrome, always confused with Epilepsy, but only now being seen for what it really is.

 

and sure the KC has have done some good things but since you brought up the Irish Setter.... they eradicated one disease... oh wow! ...... what about the rest?

WHat about the rest? Why should the KC be responsible for breeders unethical breeding practices? Should the Fell and Moorland Terrier club be responsible for terriermen mating father to daughter, and the production of inherited genetic faults as a result? Come on! CLAD killed lots of Dogs, any progress should be commended not slated. Its not only one disase, you seem hell bent on critising something I dont think you have looked into properly. Take a look at the KC website, the research and health section, and then show me the equivilent assistence anywhere in the world related to working dogs of any description.

 

i didnt see much intrigue or desire from those people to even want to TEST their dogs for possible defects. in fact they flat out refused or blatantly lied about it.

I dont see that on here either, do you?

 

as for people inundating shelters and rescues... thats nothing knew is it? if those people would jump the gun over this sudden revelation then obviously they werent really good dog owners to start with. they would probably divorce their own spouse if they too became deathly ill..... i cant help it if there are a lot of flakes in the world.

if they had bothered to read the list of "Breed Defects" then this wouldnt be a shocker!

Im very surprised you take that view. its ridiulous to compare people to dogs, there isnt one!

 

this is not NEWS unless you have been keeping your head under a rock

Not to me it isnt, but you and a whole load of others seem to be claiming all these "revelations" are terrible findings, like you said, not news to me!

[shepp 2,285]

All the programe did was show a lot more people what the working dog fraternity has known for years.

That the Kennel Club have done nothing but ruin every breed they have ever had any influence over!