blue merle

[Guest oldskool]

UNDISPUTED

Ah see how you've gone of on a diff direction with your arguement...the prob with crufts, kennel club is apart from the gundogs none of the other breeds are bred with work in mind. They have ruined the majority of the bull breeds who are not fit for purpose and prob wouldnt last a day in the field. Let me use this anology then see if it helps. Think of a puppy as a lump of clay and your the sculptor you mould the pup into your idea of what a working dog should be and depending on the skill you have you either end up with a work of art or a big lump of shite...hope that wasn't to deep for you.

 

 

 

 

 

:laugh: no it wasnt too deep... i just dont agree... use this anolgy if it is'nt too deep for you ye cheeky scamp ... to make a good sculpture you need good clay to mould that sculpture into a masterpiece.... if your given a lump of shite to mould then what are you going to end up with????? the answer is SHITE !!!

 

the problem i have with your theory is that you think any pup can be turned into something good no matter what its out of, is that correct????... And yes, your right, crufts dont breed with work in mind but neither is anyone who is breeding from untested dogs... am i not correct??? if we look back at your post where you say "KC have ruined most of the bull breeds".... and i totally agree, yes they have destroyed theyre physical structure but thats not what your theory is about... to me, your theory is saying that it is possible to take a bull pup and make it into a champion... surely, that cant be right, even if it was the correct physical build????

 

my point is simple, if the right minerals are not in there then it cant be brought out!!!!

[trader 0]

what everyone seems to forget is there are very few dogs at stud that produce anything like themselves weather it be racehorses/coursinglongdogs/greyhounds i havent included lurchers in this list as it would be hard to compare,some strains of bull/greyhounds seem to carry the genectics but even these are few and far between. with coursingdogs/greyhounds and racehorses you will get a more detailed picture of what produces[you get beat] and try to get the breeding thats beat you tell any of the coursing lads yourve got a dog for sale and the first thing that will come out of their mouths is hows it bred, they know certain strains produce and 95% dont. if you go to hancocks and are happy with the fact the stud your getting a pup out of hasnt been worked, fine you will know that the breeding is excactly what he said it is, if you what a dog that smashes foxes you are going for the wrong cross to start with, a bull/grey is what you want, if you want a general all rounder get a 3/4 collie/grey and if you want a lamping /ferreting dog get a first cross collie/grey and if you dont like collie/grey dont go to hancocks SIMPLE AINT IT TRADER

[DIGZY 4]

what everyone seems to forget is there are very few dogs at stud that produce anything like themselves weather it be racehorses/coursinglongdogs/greyhounds i havent included lurchers in this list as it would be hard to compare,some strains of bull/greyhounds seem to carry the genectics but even these are few and far between. with coursingdogs/greyhounds and racehorses you will get a more detailed picture of what produces[you get beat] and try to get the breeding thats beat you tell any of the coursing lads yourve got a dog for sale and the first thing that will come out of their mouths is hows it bred, they know certain strains produce and 95% dont. if you go to hancocks and are happy with the fact the stud your getting a pup out of hasnt been worked, fine you will know that the breeding is excactly what he said it is, if you what a dog that smashes foxes you are going for the wrong cross to start with, a bull/grey is what you want, if you want a general all rounder get a 3/4 collie/grey and if you want a lamping /ferreting dog get a first cross collie/grey and if you dont like collie/grey dont go to hancocks SIMPLE AINT IT TRADER

 

full agree with you trader anything that is something special rareley produces something to at the same standard as its self

[Simoman 110]

Colour has NO reference to the dogs working ability. His dogs aren't tested period, but you will know exactly what mix of collie lurcher you are getting

 

I should edit this and contradict myself (nothing new LOL), some colours of Cockers had temperament issues and some white GSD's are flightly and nervous but unless anyone can enlighten me lurcher colours don't seem to indicate any relavence to working ability?

[gaz 284]

Simoman,just a genuine question mate,dont be ofended now as you seem to know about yer dogs and i respect your opinion which is always wrote with a bit of commonsence but have you ever owned or worked a running dog of any kind ?......im sure ive read youve done a bit regarding G/S and the like but ive never read anything of you ever having any running dogs before....just a query

[Simoman 110]

No offence taken gaz, no I don't keep running dogs, but the point I was trying to make is regardless of breed, if you want a working dog (any type of working dog) then the only way to increase your chances is to get a pup from stock that has been tested.

[slickdicko 0]

i dont think its the breed of dog or bad ownership like many ive herd of bad living conditions and lack of socialization.

(like i said herd) but i know somone with a hancock and its a great dog!

[slickdicko 0]

No offence taken gaz, no I don't keep running dogs, but the point I was trying to make is regardless of breed, if you want a working dog (any type of working dog) then the only way to increase your chances is to get a pup from stock that has been tested.

:notworthy: :notworthy:

[gaz 284]

No offence taken gaz, no I don't keep running dogs, but the point I was trying to make is regardless of breed, if you want a working dog (any type of working dog) then the only way to increase your chances is to get a pup from stock that has been tested.

 

 

Nae bother pal,but what about...say a certain line/genes of dogs which has been tested over a good few years and has often produced many good working dogs but lately the line is now not been tested ?...true as you said offspring off working parents gives you a better chance of having yourself futre workers but surley if the line has been tested over many years but not so much this past wee while but its still producing decent dogs its still not too bad a bet of getting on the whole a good-un....just a thought

[Simoman 110]

No offence taken gaz, no I don't keep running dogs, but the point I was trying to make is regardless of breed, if you want a working dog (any type of working dog) then the only way to increase your chances is to get a pup from stock that has been tested.

 

 

Nae bother pal,but what about...say a certain line/genes of dogs which has been tested over a good few years and has often produced many good working dogs but lately the line is now not been tested ?...true as you said offspring off working parents gives you a better chance of having yourself futre workers but surley if the line has been tested over many years but not so much this past wee while but its still producing decent dogs its still not too bad a bet of getting on the whole a good-un....just a thought

 

 

I guess you would look at that individual line and make a decision

[scouser3038 1]

I think its a known fact that if you get a pup from proven parents the chances of it making the grade are a lot greater.

 

Personally i think there are exceptions for the above comment as its known fact that Hancocks stud dogs are rarely let out of there pens for general exercise let alone work!!! but i know of about half of dozen Hancock dogs that perform ok on everything and to date havnt seen one that does not, although i may not have seen as many as others run.

 

They may not excel at a particular quarry like a beddy whippet on rabbits or a bull x on fox but they make excellent all rounders whether the parents are worked or not which is why i chose a pup from Hancocks kennels.

[undisputed 1,664]

No bad dogs only bad owners is a load of bull, if its not in there you can't put it in.

 

If you wanted a dog for herding sheep, digging to, coursing with, a gundog, a guard dog etc etc would you go to Crufts and pick the dog that conforms to the breed standard, or pick the one down the street because its closest and hes soooo cute, or have a look in the free ads or look for a proven worker?

 

Buy from untested stock and you may get lucky but dogs need to be fed, trained and looked after for up to 15 years so why increase your odds of getting a duff one?????????????

 

What is this thing your talking about? You can go to all the top working men in the country and your still not guaranteed you wont end up with a "plug" of a dog...I think the Nuttal terrier is a good example of this..years ago everybody wanted one....now you start to hear all sorts of crap about them...but again I ask the question is it more to do with the owner than the dog. You take 6 pups from a litter of working stock or untried stock and sell them to 6 diff individuals and your guaranteed 6 diff results some good some bad some indifferent. Sorry simoman but there's to many variables in the mix for it to be left to chance so if its not there as you claim what determines a good one from a bad one if not how the owner enters the dog? As I said earlier with the likes of Hancock your buying a type of dog, I use 3/4 grey x's cause they suit me for what I hunt What I know when I buy one that its going to be racy of a reasonable size and need bloody hard work to get to were I want it to be. As for getting lucky I must be the luckiest guy in Scotland then cause I've yet to have a dog from Hancock that wouldn't take fox and I'm on my 3rd one now so I must be doing something right....ATB

 

 

Sorry, I don't understand what "thing"? You say there are too may variables to leave it to chance? Thats my whole argument, by picking a pup from tested parents you are reducing the risk of getting a duff dog. I agree the best bred dog needs bringing on and not leaving in the kennel but surely you breed from a sire and dam that show good characteristics, strike, drive, nose, ability etc etc.

You seem to be missing my point which is not aimed at you or Hancock, just my opinion. The nature/nurture argument has gone on for years, my point is this...............

 

There are two litters of 3/4 bull greyhounds...

 

Litter a, both the sire and dam have been worked hard for five seasons and have taken a full spectrum of quarry and proved they have the desired characteristics required in a working lurcher and the owner has bred a litter of which you can now purchase a pup.

 

Litter b, the sire and dam both have good temperaments but neither have seen much work apart from the odd bunny during exercise but the owner has bred them together and a pup is available.

 

Now in MY opinion only a muppet would choose a pup from litter b over litter a if they intended to work it. Again in MY opinion you need a well bred dog from tested parenst AND you need to put the time and effort into its training, rearing and entering to increase the chances of getting a good dog. Its nature and nurture.................

 

Yeah I agree the whole nature/nurture debate could have us going in circles forever and as we're coming at this arguement from opposite sides of the fence I doubt that we'll reach an argreement and that as far as I'm concerned is healthy. But again I stress my point regardless of what kind of workers the parents are will have little or no bearing on how your pup turns out. Consider this for a moment as I said earlier you buy a pup from any breeder the pup spends roughly 6 to 9 weeks with the dam so we can assume from that the pup has had no time to pick up any working tips from the parents. In the case of any 3/4 x depending on which way you breed we can almost be certain that the greyhound part of the equation is untried in the field which then reduces the odds even further if we use your arguement. What I am trying to put across in my own hamfisted way is this regardless of tried or untried stock the pup will learn more from being worked with dogs that are already doing the buisness more than they inherit from their parents. The other important part of the equasion is how the owner/trainer of the dog harnesses this and in my opinion is were the majority of owners fall short hence my more "bad owners than bad dogs" statement. More dogs are ruined or written off in their first season by over zealous owners too eager to be out there killing quarry that their dogs are not physically or mentally ready for and I include terriers as well as Lurchers in this. Dogs are similar to people in that they mature at different rates, but to many people are ready to write dogs of as not "having what it takes" or "jibbing" when they take a bit of punishment rather than look at themselves and how they have entered their dog. With a little more attention to detail we could avoid the majority of the free to good home adds that we see all to often in papers or in here. I will concede that there is always the exception to the rule and some people's experiences will be different from mine but in the majority of failures with dogs I would argue that the fault lies with the owner not the dog. I'm going to finish this now as the wine is starting take effect and I might be in danger of rambling. What I would say is this has turned into an interesting thread and it's been good reading folks opinions on the subject so a big well done to everyone who has contributed to this subject and after all this is what this forum is all about...I'm going now cause I'm deff rambling now....so all the best to you all and here's to a successful season..Hic! cheers!

[undisputed 1,664]

:laugh: no it wasnt too deep... i just dont agree... use this anolgy if it is'nt too deep for you ye cheeky scamp ... to make a good sculpture you need good clay to mould that sculpture into a masterpiece.... if your given a lump of shite to mould then what are you going to end up with????? the answer is SHITE !!!

 

the problem i have with your theory is that you think any pup can be turned into something good no matter what its out of, is that correct????... And yes, your right, crufts dont breed with work in mind but neither is anyone who is breeding from untested dogs... am i not correct??? if we look back at your post where you say "KC have ruined most of the bull breeds".... and i totally agree, yes they have destroyed theyre physical structure but thats not what your theory is about... to me, your theory is saying that it is possible to take a bull pup and make it into a champion... surely, that cant be right, even if it was the correct physical build????

 

my point is simple, if the right minerals are not in there then it cant be brought out!!!!

 

Ah but there is no tried and tested way of determining if the right minerals are there in any dog is there? so you go buy your pup you takes your chance..if as you claim it's down to the working ability of the parents how do you explain such a mixed bag of results in a litter?. And how do you explain my success with so called untried stock?. In relation to my clay anology I dont know of any sculpter who would use shite to mould anything and one other thing you dont have to agree with me you have your opinion I have mine. Also my theory has nothing to do with bull pups. Someone made a good point earlier about a good foundation and I think thats spot on, the original idea behind a collie x greys was that you were combining probably two of the most unchanged breeds in the history of dogs. Luckily the KC and breeders havn't spoiled either breed and they have both proven their worth. The grey for its speed and the collie for its brains and durability thats why the x has lasted so long.

[Stabs 3]

Luckily the KC and breeders havn't spoiled either breed and they have both proven their worth.

 

Have you seen a show greyhound

 

Shocking......

[bill88 6]

I think its a known fact that if you get a pup from proven parents the chances of it making the grade are a lot greater.

 

Personally i think there are exceptions for the above comment as its known fact that Hancocks stud dogs are rarely let out of there pens for general exercise let alone work!!! but i know of about half of dozen Hancock dogs that perform ok on everything and to date havnt seen one that does not, although i may not have seen as many as others run.

 

They may not excel at a particular quarry like a beddy whippet on rabbits or a bull x on fox but they make excellent all rounders whether the parents are worked or not which is why i chose a pup from Hancocks kennels.

 

Absolutely spot on there mate,i have an old Hancocks bitch here that was a very capable dog in her day,and i have seen plenty of decent grafters come from his kennels,in fact a mate of a mate told me that the Hancocks dog he had in the early 90's was the best fox dog he ever owned.Would i buy a dog from Hancocks? absolutely not.