Line breeding???

[Guest pip]

Just interested in line breeding and was wondering if anyone really knows what they re at ,how close can you breed without running into problems ,for example if you breed say father to daughter can you go grandfather to grandaughter etc and when do you stop or do most just experiment and hope for the best???

[dev 226]

hopefully you get some good replys from experianced breeders on this one pip,im very interested in this topic as i have just bred my bitch to her father and we have alot of pups from him to different bitches that we would like,(if they turn out good enought) in time to mix through each other

[huntwithhounds 3]

line breeding is a way of securing qualities or assets of a particular dog.Say for instance you have a dog that you deem perfect. ie has a good temprement, gives 100%, looks good without any defects.(it must have all these because by breeding close you will promote all the good genes as well as the bad). If you then answer yes to all of them questions you can start to think about line breeding ie LOCKING them disirable qualities.You could then breed your dog(sire) to two

good bitchs. one bitch(50%sire/50%dam) from one litter could be mated to a good dog(50%sire/50%dam) from the other litter this breeding would then end up with pups which would still have 50% of the orignal sire but 25% to each bitch.The orignal sire could then be mated to other bitchs who's offspring can be brought into the line breeding program.This is a simple way of explaining line breeding and with all genetics it can get very complicated.Many Huntsmen can trace hounds back over hundreds of years line breeding to a specific Stallion hound.With this type of breeding you hope to produce pups which retain mostly the same looks and temprements.

 

INbreeding is totally different but still revolves around trying to lock specific qualities.If you are not totally honest with yourself and don't see the problems with your dogs it can lead to all sorts of deformities.A typical example of inbreeding is father mated to daughter outcome 75% sire 25% dam.Inbreeding can be faster(time wise) than line breeding because you are breeding closer, but often Outcrosses(different breeding) are needed to address any problems.

 

Both the above types of breeding allows breeders to put there stamp on a breed of dog. Look at the difference between Nutalls patterdales to the Show types.

 

i'am no genetic scentist but hopefully this will help somepeople understand the basics.

[Guest pip]

Thanks ,the reason i ask is i bred my bitch back to her da last year,because he was the best producer i knew of and he was dug by me all of his digs until retired young.He has all the qualities i was looking ,nose etc etc.the bitch out of him was better than him imo so i put him over her,the pup is only 8 monthes but is great size for a bitch and temperment wise great but she s not starting to next season,if she starts.Anyway i was wondering if she turned out to be all that i want could i use her da/grandad over her again?

[dev 226]

im no expert pip but i dont think so mate as she is 3/4 his blood already if you mated her back to him that would be 7/8 his blood ,if you had a son of him to a different bitch,id say it would be better to use him instead. tho as i said im no expert so hopefully someone with experiance in this can help you out!

[Guest pip]

The reason im doing it Dev is to dilute the bitches and get as close back to the dogs blood as possible.The bitches the dog was used over where average and i personally would nt have done the mating but the matings have worked and i reckon its down to the dog hence my notion of saturating what i have in this dogs blood.A lot remains to be seen but your not the first to say about the using the siblings but as i say if the dog was used over bitches that where 100%and had the right blood then that would be an option but to go back into the siblings would be saturating the bitches too and would be defeating the purpose. ?????????????

[Keeps 403]

Don't suppose this will help if it is the dog rather than the bitch you are wanting to linebreed to. Below is I K Felch's line breeding system, as described by DB Plummer that shows how you can keep the same blood 50/50 over many generations.

 

 

If you are wanting to linebreed to the dog, theres no reason why you cannot use the dog over a daughter (75% sire) and then breed one of the resulting litter to an unrelated dog whose work qualities you like. I own a dog who is the result of a father to daughter mating (75% sires blood). To be honest I dont think you could go higher than 75% without running into problems of one sort or another and it would be wiser to breed to a good unrelated dog once you have 75% of your original dogs blood.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Keeps

[dev 226]

pip me and mate are trying to do the same thing with his dog,we have bred him to his 2 daughters and are hoping to reproduce him as much as we can,we are lucky tho thats the bitches that he has been bred to are 100%,so we have other off spring from him to bring back into the breeding if all works out

Edited March 29, 2008 by dev

[Guest pip]

Thanks everyone ,im trying to get this to sink in ,i have the option if neccessary of an uncle of the 75%bitch over her if she works out,but he has only been lightly used at work and while he impressed i couldn t say he was tested.I notice Keeps it says there that in the 3rd year a bitch from group 4[75%]can be mated to the original dog giving that the pups would be 7/8,so would you not recommend this.On an individual dog basis this would be my best option if viable. ??????????????????????????????????

[Keeps 403]

Thanks everyone ,im trying to get this to sink in ,i have the option if neccessary of an uncle of the 75%bitch over her if she works out,but he has only been lightly used at work and while he impressed i couldn t say he was tested.I notice Keeps it says there that in the 3rd year a bitch from group 4[75%]can be mated to the original dog giving that the pups would be 7/8,so would you not recommend this.On an individual dog basis this would be my best option if viable. ??????????????????????????????????

Pip I have no personal experience of breeding that close, the closest I have bred is sire and dam sharing the same sire/grandsire and I have not bred many litters and I did it because it was a mating I could never do again. If you follow Felch's chart then in theory it says you can do it, but whether in practice it would work out or not I wouldn't like to say.

[Guest pip]

Thanks Keeps .Does anyone know of anyone who has done this as i would like to find out as much as i can?Thanks .

[Ozzydogman 9]

Just interested in line breeding and was wondering if anyone really knows what they re at ,how close can you breed without running into problems ,for example if you breed say father to daughter can you go grandfather to grandaughter etc and when do you stop or do most just experiment and hope for the best???

 

I did a triple-bred mating a few years ago. The Sire is a good small dog (we like them small in this part of the world), and his daughter (1st mating) is almost as good. did the father/daughter mating and kept a bitch that i was happy with, and put her back to her father/grandfather. 3 pups were born. 1 tiny little bitch, 1 bitch that looked like its grandmother, and a dog that matured out to 5 pound heavier than the parents and is far stronger than anything from that line. He is only 2 and a half, but is working well for the person who has him. The 2 bitches werent any good.

Father/Grandfather/Great Grandfather on the left, INBRED dog on the right.

[Marcos 44]

Hi Pip

try this link http://www.tenset.co.uk/fspeed/ it may be a help. I would try your working sheepdog association, I guess in the UK it will have a web site but most people involved in sheep dogs are very interested in breeding and inbreeding coefficients ( how close to go !!) There are some very good books on it and generally you can breed a lot closer than you think without major concerns, I can chase a few titles up of books for you as I am a bit far a way to be able to lend one. All the best

Cheers and Beers

Marcos

[Guest pip]

Thanks everyone ,think if all works out with the bitch ill give it go just looking a good pup for myself ,that pup on the right looks stronger than the sire Ozzydogman,i was afraid of loosing bone etc but the dogs are good sizes to begin with so fingers crossed.p***y think i mind you posting about peggy before,if "the blind dog" is still around would you mate her back to him?Thanks Marcos i ve plenty of time to think about it and an old school friend of mine is a sheep dog breeder so i must give him a call some time. Dev ill keep you posted in a few years how it goes,if the bitch lives up to standard.

[stevie g 2005 125]

PIP, MY BITCH "PEGGY" WAS THE RESULT OF A DAUGHTER BRED BACK TO HER FATHER( THE BLIND DOG). BEST THING THAT WAS DONE, YOU CAN BREED AS CLOSE AS YOU WANT, SEEN IT DONE A LOT WITH THE PITBULL MEN, I READ A LOT OF STUFF THAT BRIAN PLUMMER WROTE ON INBREEDING, THE MAN DONE IT FOR YEARS, THERES A FEW GUYS COME ON FORUMS KNOCKING BRIAN ON HIS BREEDING PRATICE ETC, TAKE IT FROM ME ANY GUY THAT TELLS YE HE WAS JUST A WRITER, ARE JUST DAY DREAMERS THEM SELFS, BREED AS CLOSE AS YOU WANT WITH WANT YOU WANT, CULL ANY PUP WITH DEFECTS, AND CULL ANY DOG THAT DONT MAKE THE GRADE, LOTS OF GOOD DOG MEN DO IT, BUT THEY WONT COME ON RECORD TO SAY IT.

U TALK LIKE ITS THE GOSPEL I HAVENT SEEN NONE OF UR DOGS WORK BUT I HAVE SEEN PUPS OF THEM RATS ON STEROIDS ALSO U STICK TO UR NUTTAL STUFF AND UR BRAIN PLUMMER BOOKS I HAVE YET TO SEE ONE OF UR POSTS THAT U HAVE DUG OVER 3 FOOT U GO ON ABOUT THAT DEALER DOG WHAT WAS IT U SAID HE HAD 3OO HUNDREAD DIGS IN THREE YEARS OK U HAVE A LURCHER BITCH DOWN THERE THAT I OWNED THE MOTHER AND I WILL TELL U THIS NOW SHE SHOULD NEVER HAD A LITTER OUT OF FUNNY WHEN BOYS LIKE U GET IT ITS TOP STUFF THING IS CHECK UR POSTS U SEEM TO BUM UR DOGS UP IN THE SUMMER PUUPY TIME I THINK :clapper:ADDED TO SAY BRIAN PLUMMER WOULD SUIT U HE TALKED SHITE TO BUT MADE A FEW POUND OUT OF DOING IT HOPE U READ THIS U TOP TERRIER MAN HAVE U SOLD MANY PUPS OUT OF UR SPECIAL STUFF I THINK U HAVE GONE ANS ME THIS MANY PUPS HAVE U SOLD RECENTLY I HEAR U SAY BRIAN WAS NOT A DREAMER U ARE POUND COINS U DREAM

Edited April 3, 2008 by stevie g 2005