Plummer terriers

[Linton Lad 90]

THEM BEAUFORT HOUNDS IN YOUR AVATAR

Not sure possibly could be ?

Surprised YOU dont know the BEAUFORT hounds???

[The Fox hunter 0]

THEM BEAUFORT HOUNDS IN YOUR AVATAR

Not sure possibly could be ?

Surprised YOU dont know the BEAUFORT hounds???

 

No don't know them that well,to far away from me...I just liked the picture..........

[averagec 1]

i think the kc want different types in a breed to show that there is a wide gene pool...that said it is the health side they want improving [more so after the past couple of years fiasco with certain breeds and the bad pr] the relatively larger numbers of other breeds out there means although there will be issues with health, it should be a small percentage of dogs. the problem with the pt is that it is still a relatively 'small' breed and the same number of dogs with faults means a bigger percentage of problems, especially when groups arent talking.

 

gotta say from what i have found out imo the way forward is not just breeding worker to worker as per old school, but worker to worker [with pedigrees], that way health problems can be traced and identified, or at least it should be easier to trace things......but that all depends on the honesty of those breeding the dogs, and from my own experience there seem to be a lot of people [for such a small breed] that at one point or another have been 'less than honest' about their breedings.

 

this seems to be one of the main reasons for division.

 

...some hark back to issues with dbp that have coloured or exasabated the problems as people who hated him for his 'ways' now hate his breed just as an extension rather than giving them a chance...as WC has mentioned, and as i have found out there a a fair few working to ground but they keep themselves to themselves not getting involved in the politics etc. and people bring up these personal, or similar personal differences as can be seen on any pt post.

 

...most of the current issues seem to stem from people breeding dogs and not being truthful about the outcomes or not telling the truth about dogs used etc...then being found out and bad feeling stems from there...

there seem to be a lot of people out there who profess to only be in it for the working of the breed [rats or earth] and are more than happy to cross the pt with other breeds, fell,jr etc and then try to claim that the offspring are all pt's when they want a pedigree and the ability to show them in the summer months...from what i have found out in the short time i have been around..imho.

 

the 2 reasons for KC i can see is that 1. it will be down to them to police any issues regarding breeding/pedigrees and so should stop the 'internal' bickering/problems,nd 2. it was dbp's wish that it gets kc recognition, which seems reasonable.

the reality of the kc issues isnt really down to solely them but more to do with breed clubs not breeding to a standard for the good of the dogs..and the easy solution is/was to blame the kc, but the breed clubs were more to blame. i cant see things getting a lot clearer now with the breed and the longer it goes without recognition the more damage may be done and hence the less chance they will eventually accept them in. as has been mentioned some will jump on the 'kc price hike deal', but there isnt any reason why any working breeder should do that if that isnt truly what they are in it for!

 

i'm not sure that this breed will ever be an out and out earth dog as CS has pointed out, rather an all round pest control breed. that said there isnt any reason why it shouldn't if someone is careful about breeding but that will be a long way off imo as there are just too few 'known about' dogs out there.

 

my own pt self entered at 7 months...a shock at the time as i wasnt aware of the earth being there! thankfully nothing was at home but there was obvious sign that it had been used. since then he hasnt entered again, because i have been more cautious and he has been happy that it has not been used and if nothing is there he will normally ignore it. at 20 months now i think he is well and truly ready, he has matured and is at the stage where he could do with a fresh challenge [as well as me], that said not many of my permissions have earths on them so it is hit and miss. i will keep chipping away and am sure i will drop onto something but at 20 months i'm still not rushing in!

 

as i have said all the above is in my opinion and has been gleaned from people within all the differing clubs etc and individuals from within the pt world as well as some from outside...

 

yup good post CS!!

 

gotta say though WC...from my own dealings with the breed most of those who have contacted me about the breed in the past year have all been from working backgrounds/or wanting a worker - either rats/pest/bushing or fox. i have helped in the rehoming of a couple from 'pet' homes, and they were rehomed due to behavioural problems, mainly due to lack of stimulus/work. once rehomed, certainly one of them seems to be working very well [in ireland] to ground...[although my info is a bit out of date on that]. almost all the 'new' owners i have met certainly through the epts side have been working their dogs...and i gotta say that glenn is very careful, imho, about putting to working homes. i cant talk about others i have heard about though!!??

 

atb

In hunting terms "entered" means that the dog is succesfully working its chosen quarry ie fox. It does not mean the dog has been down a hole.

[Toka 10]

...a bad choice of words there ....that said i am sure once charlie is home he will get on with it

 

atb

[wirral countryman 2,110]

TOKA,I thought your post was well written and a good balenced view of things from inside the circle of trust,its a pity there are not more lads within the clubs with your attitude,the problems associated with the drive for KC as I see it is that it becomes all about looks,you only have to observe the damage done to other terrier breeds,they always breed bigger,too many women become heavily involved with the showing,so the working side becomes neglected,this dog is firstly and foremost a working terrier not a showdog,I obtained my first plummer off brian in 1980ish and have seen dogs ranging from little 8"-10" all the way up to 16"-17" monster's so I can see the need for uniform conformity,all one size breeding true to type,but even the clubs can't agree with one another,what started as one club at last count I think we were up to seven,if you can't get your own way then start another club where you can seems to be the motto,my idea of a plummer is a 12"-13" tts dog,wieghing 12lb-14lb,easily spannable,that can work all quarry,I've never been a member of any club other than the fell and moorland,mainly for the rescue side of things,this register that is hoped to gain KC reg with is not worth a light if it doesn't contain at least 50% working dogs,these dogs you talk of with behavioural problems are mainly down to lack of exercise or work by their owner's, so yet again that comes back to selling pups to the right working homes,they don't make good pets that sleep all day and are walked now and again,they need a lot of work or they become a problem,going back to your dog, it is unusual for a dog to enter an empty earth and run through it without it being occupied,I would call that false marking and have seen another plummer of a mate of mine's do it now and then,its a pity you never had another dog already doing earthwork that you could of checked to see if there was a fox at home on the day,anyway I'm sure if its going to go it will soon,atb,wirralman

 

 

[Toka 10]

Cheers WC...gotta say i like the way the epts thinks and as you have stated they/we do seem to cover most of the concerns you voice, within our ethos. [back to the thread now]

 

working though i have to say that i know of quite a few female owners who do regularly work their dogs as much as the next fella so to speak...to fox. i do think personally that some are in it for the money [probably a bit like any breed] Bilbo cost me 250 notes and knowing he came from a working home wit hgood working lines was important. imho i believe ther has to be a price to be paid for a worker to give some value to it, otherwise they may end up binned at the first hurdle....its only too easy to get another dog if your first falls [and then usually pass it on and so on]

i do feel very sorry for people i am hearing about who are going to people offerring pups at £400 with a pedigree [which is not worth the money its written on - but is given out delibrately to increase the money coming in]. possibly not even plummers but plummer x jr or fell crosses. the sad thing is that this isnt from some small individual or hidden away presonality but from someone who is apparently respected within the breed and a handful of clingons [for use of a better word] it is people like these who cause so much damamge but spout on about the workign and politics of the breed. it will be from buyers like this i am sure we/i will end up helping to rehome or advise in the future...but like the F&M that is one of the things the club does irrespective of type/pedigree/club etc, we will try to help and offer advice.

 

anyway...back on track..bilbo's nose is one of the best, the earth is just really an L shaped tube which hadn't been used. we turned up expecting no differrent but lo and behold there were fresh tracks in/out and around the earth, it smelt of fox and he shot in [as he was off the lead - learnt my lesson there ]

he hasnt false marked yet so i think it was a case of charlie sensing our approach - which wasnt very quiet with a 7 month dog working around the scrub - and doing on out just before we got there.

 

just waiting for the next time now!! Bill is just over 13" and my next will be a bit smaller 12-12.5" i hope. he is for me an all round dog as my next one will be but having two different sizes can only help with the different situations you can come across. [sorry to all the dedicated digging men out there ] as he is a pest controller not just an earth dog.

 

i am surprised how many terrier owners [non plummer] have commented on how good his nose is. i cant really compare as i have only seen a few other dogs, but having beagle blood in there must have increased their nose to a degree???

just got a tub of frozen blood to start some scent/blood training with him in the next few weeks...will see how that goes.

 

atb

[EPTR 4]

Glenn-If plummer was such a twat and the PLUMMER terrier such a mongrel,and you are such a genius,why dont you start from scratch and create your own breed of terrier instead of riding on Plummers coat tails while slagging him off incessantly,as well as anyone else that has a different OPINION from you.

The thread improved for a while-even your posts were reasonable,without the childish name calling. You even used IMO instead of FACT.

Sliding back now though.

 

So how about it -lets see you create something YOURSELF.

Your dogs are no better than any other plummer-fact

 

Who said plummer was a tXXT you not me LOL..and I'm a genius well thanks Bill i wouldn't go so far as that but if you insist then i will except .

 

When did i say my dogs were any better than anyones ?..you seem to be making stories up to suit your train of thought..

 

Back then they were mongrel's prove me wrong with a pedigree, or should we start popping them up and debating them. and then put up th edefinition of mongrol up!

 

I have plenty to go at over 1000 now.Including some of yours!

 

 

Bill the facts speak for themselves all im doing is highlighting them i will let others make there own minds up.( as good journalist should do ..but i know im not one lol)

 

 

If the cakes to hard to swallow then don't bite in!

 

Brian was fun but i and cp soon found that he was out for one man only and to hell with anyone who gets in the way! ..so be it but immortality doesn't come so easy.

If he had showed some respect at all to those around him who prevented the type from extinction (especially CP) and had helped him out they may well have thought more of him. Fact is he did'nt like the idea of others knowing a little more than he thought was good enough and having a different opionion ....like thee and me Difference is im a realist and don't look back or forward with rose tinted glasses.

 

 

I can handle the debate (you seem to take everything to heart!) as all i've done is piont out the facts... Like the next one.

 

Hector the so called "reflex grafter " was offered around to anyone who wanted him including myslef..did he gain a WC with the hereford ?.. no one saw it!..PROVE HE DID so was he that good ?..i doubt it he never made a name for himself ended up in obscurity sired 6 terriers most in caithness all of which did nowt!.. another rose tinted view of owd plummers!

I SAW ONLY ONE WORKING CERTIFICATE AND THAT WAS HAMISH'S...that does'nt mean to say plums old stuff didnt have any wc's but if i had dogs with wc's (as many a she alleged he had) id have kept them for the history books. MUCH BETTER THAN ROSSETTES EH!.but im sceptical bugger at the best of times and prefer proof everytime, or did i just learn my lesson not to trust him from ..him?

 

But i do agree he Heccy was under used but then how many more fell crosses did we need?especially by the famous rocky ..perhaps if it had been a fell cross kotian then he may well have been snapped up...why? i really don't now as pip had is down side to. But rocky was heavily used, at the time, and it would have been a different line..but a mongrol at best all the same. to f2s mated togther dont make a breed...IMO of course Bill.IMO..

 

 

I have no wish to start a breed i've sunk too much time into helping the evolution of a breed develop from as Brian called them "hotch botch " bunch.

 

Shame you missed out it has been great fun,(but you need dedication) and I have great pleasure seeing them as they are now .

 

My opinion my differ from yours ..but i will not be slating you with such vulgarities as you seem to like to use. I look forward to the next wonderful blurp of anti welsby propanganda...ps i do quite like the sound of welsby terrier though..but other suggestiosn have been made by members that are actuly beter!

 

Didn't Vamps have a W/C With the Grove and Rufford?And was it Vampire at the start of one of the DBP'S documentaries?

 

Who nows? i don't Wally wild perhaps . I have yet to see a plummer with a w,cert. Rocky wa salso a grove and rufford dog...but then certs from freinds are like rossests from friends worthy of nowt.

 

Im assured by many of his old time freinds that brain was a pr man top rate at it to.

 

I doubt many things he said now due to the numerous times he was caught out by myself.

 

However id love to look at the books and the vids and take it all in as gosspel but im now sceptical. Proof has been never found of any terriers with certs of working. Like hectoer its word of mouth bu a freind now!

 

I now disbelief no pics no certs,,and as wirrely keeps harking on, if brian wanted these dogs to be tested and proven ..his ego and pr skills would have made him collect certs to prove his breed..but alas none we have!..and was given many bist for the history books ,.many pics of terriers ..but no working shots and no certs!

[EPTR 4]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

 

and like most good reads. glen wont let the truth get in the way of a good story

 

"truth".. ..im still waiting for the little dog above to be photod next to a tape measure...that you claim is 12.5 inchs ... you galantly seem to be sticking piccys of other peeps dogs up or are have you suddenly bought a few in ( i think not) a little advise dont belive all the owners tell you about there dogs..spady :sick: ..but then youve only been in the breed a few months ..experince is telling here now ..those that know what there talking about haveing a decent converstion and the rest that jump in with jibes!.. ..LOL

 

you wont be getting a pic. she is twelve inch. a mans word is good enough where i come from. my oldest plummer is nearly four my next is three years, and my youngest is coming two. i owned a plummer in the early ninties and have bred a litter from wizard and line bred the resulting pups you will know the time i have been working terriers if you know your stuff pures crossbreds and oc. along with russells and coloured terriers. ive judged a few shows and international championships and reared entered and done well with KC. terriers. winning well at there shows with workin dogs. what year was wizard. or coed ban wizard. at gadgirth born.? ive enough experience to stick my ten peneth in. allthough you wont agree.

 

 

so whats your guess on her size

 

 

Like i said your wrong that dog aint 12 inchs and you have failed to prove im wrong. As for being an imnternational judge you need a tape measure next time. know wonder the kc has a bad name about altering dogs confromation if judges can't even judge height!

 

Wizard lol have that dogs pedigree somewhere...maybe the wrong one tho as this WIZARD was a q x warlock and that pedigree is riddled with JRs and a dose of supposedly pitbull Making it a mongrol. Hardely a plummer terrier eh!

 

Q / warlock. your right. he was owned by helen jones then and was bred by plummer so he was a plummer terrier. as for the pitbull i dont know. but the ones we bred where only ten to eleven inches. and where to hard for there size, the international was meant to read national the bitch is twelve inch

 

like i said i have a pure. just checked the ped. it has two lines to errol forsyths pip. (jack russell... ainsley newtons tri colour...not sure about that one ?. and hector. was he not a patt cross. pta. mongrel. :kiss:

 

We call the terriers "Plummer" now as we consider them a "breed" Brian tho a like able rogue had a wish to call his working terriers "plummer" one day (see the vids) back then tho as you have just pionted out they were not a breed .And as you "dont know "..and i will enlighten you..read on

 

Helens Wizard being at least an f2 hardley a breed as it was sired by warlock who was half JR and apparently out of a bull cross.

 

His dam "Q" went to "m jones" was a gradaughter of lewis's micky so wizard was "not all that " and looking at "willard" his son id say was more variable than a tube of smarties!

 

 

A purebred (must be either very old or somebreeder needs to play catch up)with two lines to a JR ( PIP) and Hector f2 fell terrier plus the "newton mongrol" ..as if it ain't the definition must be wrong for mongrol as this dog has fells and russells in the second gene. These dogs were immediate pedigrees in the 1980s not now!

 

its a pta regd terrier 3 years old. and the terriers are at the tail end of a five generation ped.

 

wizard was wiht helen jones. not muriel and was in his dotage. he was used over a few russells and produced some decent workers. and most being a good sort to look at.

 

t

Tail end of a five gen pedigree then its older breeding like i said .

 

 

Wizard ..thats right and read again spady... "Q" the dam was apprently alledgeyly at m jones !..she produced apprently heavily pattered terriers from the line from "Q"..

 

I doubt these were plummers stuff as brian and muriel alwsay said but more like one of the many heavily patterend terriers around in the 60s and 50s...brian liked to say he produced the first plummer markings but alas there were about way before plummer started his ego trip. and yes i have pictorial proof.

[EPTR 4]

glen,I certainly don't wear rose coloured spectacles as regards DBP but I do like the breed HE started and can only say as I find,there were certainly more working plummer's about in the 's as I remember it,they were worked harder on all quarry by more ordinary people,all these plummer clubs and societies just seemed to of weakened them as a working dog,whether this is because of political infighting or maybe brian is not there anymore to shape the direction in which you should all be heading I really don't know,but you collectively have separated this breed from ordinary ownership by working class lads by overpricing pups,is it all about money and KC registration?surely its working qualities deserve better,if people just wish to show thats up to them but I do feel every effort should be made to get more pups into working homes,if the breed has advanced as much as you would have us believe Glen why not fully test your stock in the way Brian did with huntsmen,these people are in the thick of it daily and are a true test for these new superior dogs,at some point this stock has to be fully tested just to see if your genetic knowledge has produced the dog you say,you've talked the talk about the quality of these little dogs why not walk the walk and test them properly,if their found wanting then what?are you scared they may not be up to it?there's no use having a dog from a working breed that just wins shows and looks good its got to have some working background as well,I realise that would mean a change in direction to your present goal but a worthwhile one,remember Brian tried to breed the best looking working dogs from different breeds many times before he found his direction,he travelled about this country sourcing what he considered good stock from known working terriermen and imho this is where you differ from him,he wanted a working dog that would eventually gain KC recognition,where as you want a KC showdog that might work,not quite the same thing,wirralman

Repetition is your argument

 

Brains idea was for a all rounder not simply an earth dog

He never produced a wc in my company and have no records of him owning dogs with wcs.As fro testing his dogs with huntsmen he maywell have done but he also told lies and didnt do .. .

I have peds that are false and peds that have wcs on them both are wrong and both signed by plum.So why do i belief the rest of the wcs.

 

He may have wanted all his dogs to have wcs as you keep saying ..sure thing brian we all want them ..but alas that aint so easy.

 

My dogs work well all round i have bred some rubbish lookers and workers and bred some fantastic lookers and earth dogs ...one lad on here actually.

 

I have no wish to prove my stock to you or anyone as they are up to the work i want them to do and please owners if they don't i ask questions and do something about it.

Edited July 18, 2010 by EPTR

[EPTR 4]

Thought this may be of interest to some of you.

 

Loaned this bitch ..terrible thing ..sister pagan 2 was the same.

 

Bred all known faults for me when put to san ..one line from her my bitch quazar and luca is with "the halsteads" of lab fame. They hunt now around here a pack of hounds called the five valleys..

[poacher3161 1,766]

A pic of the bitch climber i believe the book was published in the 70s [bANNED TEXT] their was still the rough haired mongrely terriers that plummer had still about in my area.atb dell

[The Fox hunter 0]

A pic of the bitch climber i believe the book was published in the 70s [bANNED TEXT] their was still the rough haired mongrely terriers that plummer had still about in my area.atb dell

 

I believe that there were only 250 copies of that book ever printed.DBP had the six form girls from Forest comp type it up for him,then had it printed himself.So look after it,good to see though thanks.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

the bitch in the pic looks like its got a belly full of pups. thanks for shareing

[stormyboy 1,352]

A lot of talk about lies,dishonesty,deception etc. This,that and the other dogs weren't or aren't plummers.

who knows?

 

Can anyone answer one simple question i asked previously and was met with BLAH BLAH BLAH unquote. When did the plummer terrier become the plummer terrier?

Just a simple answer would be appreciated-no arguements,just a straight forward answer. Cheers.

[poacher3161 1,766]

A pic of the bitch climber i believe the book was published in the 70s [bANNED TEXT] their was still the rough haired mongrely terriers that plummer had still about in my area.atb dell

 

I believe that there were only 250 copies of that book ever printed.DBP had the six form girls from Forest comp type it up for him,then had it printed himself.So look after it,good to see though thanks.

I bought in an old petshop nr the sheaf market in sheffield about 82 for a couple of pound as the owner said it had been on the shelf for years.atb dell