Plummer terriers

[stormyboy 1,352]

THE PUREBERD CAN STAND ALONE AND HAVE PROVEN TO SINCE QUITE CONSDIERBALY WELL HERE THEY HAVE. Translation?

 

 

The adtition of outcross blood to the eptr regiter was a polictal move only. If, as you have claimed, there were enough "pures" to perpetuate and improve on,why allow "new blood" onto your register at all? What "political" motive? It seems hypocritical to pour scorn on them yet allow them to be registered IMO.

 

I believe Brian was referring to the f1/f2 re; doubling. Obviously line breeding is required to fix desired traits, but this can be achieved relatively quickly with dogs of similar type eg. terriers rather than completely different types,say collie x terrier.

Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygousity regardless of the percentage of geniality.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

12 inch. outcross stuff i believe.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

very similar to some of the older stuff i'd say

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

steady as a rock with folk. as is my bigger bitch. never so much as lifted a lip to a person either of em.

 

talk of dogs attacking folk is just scaremongering and could be leveled at the pure as well you know.

 

as for your expert. take a look at the improvemen in the russell brought about by splashes of fell bull and sundry other breeds. or if its more up your street. the KC parson. ive seen some very nice pures but ive also seen one or two pish poor one's also.

[EPTR 4]

THE PUREBERD CAN STAND ALONE AND HAVE PROVEN TO SINCE QUITE CONSDIERBALY WELL HERE THEY HAVE. Translation?

 

 

The adtition of outcross blood to the eptr regiter was a polictal move only. If, as you have claimed, there were enough "pures" to perpetuate and improve on,why allow "new blood" onto your register at all? What "political" motive? It seems hypocritical to pour scorn on them yet allow them to be registered IMO.

 

I believe Brian was referring to the f1/f2 re; doubling. Obviously line breeding is required to fix desired traits, but this can be achieved relatively quickly with dogs of similar type eg. terriers rather than completely different types,say collie x terrier.

Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygosity regardless of the percentage of geniality.

 

 

Politics..we accepted the new blood as i believed at the time we had no choice if we were going to get the breed registered every move made by any club would be blocked by norma and the so called club ..PTCGB..However subsequently things have moved on and we are now in a different spot.

 

The Kc cant forever listen to individuals and unstructured minorities over the majority's.

 

Breeding wise linebreeding fixing traits (most common stratergy of breeders of livestock) ,,etc yes but . you have completly lost me with..

 

"Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygousity regardless of the percentage of geniality...NEVER HEARD THIS PHRASE BEFORE "percenrtage of geniality "IN GENETCIS CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN ME.

 

Surely the amount, the % of "common kin blood " and the ( coe of inbreedimg) "F" value reduces heterozygosity and increase homozygosity..well it does in all my books so far!

 

 

Wiki gives us this..

 

"The probability that two alleles at a given locus are identical by descent. ie The extent to which an individual is more likely to be homozygous rather than heterozygous because of related parents "

 

"Heritability can be made larger by diversifying the genetic background, e.g., by using only very outbred individuals which increases the Variance"

 

 

Withot going into breeding plans..and arguieng what is and isnt the best breedimng plan .. I simply have illustrated to those that have these outcross blooded animals that none of the aims can be claimed to have been reached. IMO.

 

If they had they would have been documented and proven beyond doubt in the ten years they have been about. When the epts application goes to the KC I have no choice but to produce and sourrender my theories on the subject . Having seen many generations of pureberds and have documented their rise and the ailments they possess. Justifying brians last atempt "have his way" will be at the very least taxing...without the fruits of his ideas and not his labours, for all to be seen.

[EPTR 4]

 

steady as a rock with folk. as is my bigger bitch. never so much as lifted a lip to a person either of em.

 

talk of dogs attacking folk is just scaremongering and could be leveled at the pure as well you know.

 

as for your expert. take a look at the improvement in the russell brought about by splashes of fell bull and sundry other breeds. or if its more up your street. the KC parson. ive seen some very nice pures but ive also seen one or two pish poor one's also.

I have no need to scaremonger sapdey why would i ned to scaremonger?

 

Ask piggin (PC)about his vist here ...if he dare say the truth.

 

As for bitters whos to say why we have had these calls but as we are a club and advertise then perhaps we get them more than you who deosnt even share his name?

 

Right cleanspade ..so then you will give us a breakdown of its pedigree so we can see just what it is made up of ...then.. you will proove that that this/these phenotypic looking animals processes all the traits "fixed" in required by the out cross..programme. I doubt this.

 

You have simply put up a picture of a smart looking terrier of which im sure there are plenty as there are more smart looking purebred too by dint of time and breeding..means nothing...doesn't prove the plan has worked eg .eliminating diseases etc.

 

I have said many times that there are some smart looking terrier ..but the Plan hasnt worked as there is no proof of the aims being reached..nice looking dogs are one thing homozygosity and fixing traits and eliminating diseases is a completely different ball game.

 

Can you remember the dog raggengill pazzaz and his brother phobos and proteus do you recall the lenght of the cannine teeth? on phobos and the tarits he uniqukly caried? and the weight issues? . Nope your experince with the breed is somwhat based on a few months with the oc's bit biased and simply not had enough experiance.

[EPTR 4]

Saw lucy work and was tested , also saw another simalar bred dog work.

a bit big and not an oil painting but did more then most

Glen are the Plummers still ageing prematurely?Or is this a problem that it no longer with them?

 

 

Not sure really we have a few now at 9/10 doing regular ratting trips.

[EPTR 4]

 

12 inch. outcross stuff i believe.

[/quote)

 

Lets see it against a ruler as it looks a little bigger than that mate!

[stormyboy 1,352]

Individual dogs can be homozygous-breed true,regardless of the percentages of other breeds,once line bred,in a relevantly short time. Clear enough?

Its not that difficult to fix traits,esp. in dogs of similar type.

[The Fox hunter 0]

Saw lucy work and was tested , also saw another simalar bred dog work.

a bit big and not an oil painting but did more then most

Glen are the Plummers still ageing prematurely?Or is this a problem that it no longer with them?

 

 

Not sure really we have a few now at 9/10 doing regular ratting trips.

Fantastic,i know it was a problem a few years ago so it's good to hear!You stick with the pure line's mate from what i hear the introduction of the Bull terrier blood did the breed no favours!

[Kate28 22]

the bull blood has made no difference work wise what so ever,but they do have stamina to burn, and i dont mean hyper,temprement varies as you would expect depending how you mix it with the pure, not rocket sience,iv got new and old all 13" and below,time to move on from new and old they are plummers end of, some "pure" has high % jr or fell, but still get called pure.

these are some of my "outcross"

 

below Ace 12.5, full brother to shinys bitch Amber

 

below are two half sisters 13"

 

im not going to tell any one they will set the world on fire as the next new earth dog, but i keep them as a good all round sporting terrier and expect them to do all i wont

[EPTR 4]

Individual dogs can be homozygous-breed true,regardless of the percentages of other breeds,once line bred,in a relevantly short time. Clear enough?

Its not that difficult to fix traits,esp. in dogs of similar type.

 

No not really clear bill as the statement is contradictory ..f1s (50% of one breed and 50% another) are not homozygous and will not breed true...but by adding "once line bred " you cancel out the % idea..of course animals breed truer when they are inbred that's the whole point of inbreeding...

 

BUT HIGH % OF ONE BREED WILL INFLEUNCE THE LOOK OF THE OFFSPRING MASSIVELY...(LINEBREEDING TO THAT BREED).IS EFFECTIVELY LINEBREEDING TO A TRAIT THE BREED HAS EG LONG NOSES IN FOXTERRIERS.

 

My data also produces information that says that animals with more than 25% effectively f2s of a certain breed will not breed true to the standard neither ...so homozygosity takes a long long time in fact i would say that at present there are few purebreds that breed "true to standard "(that aren't inbred to a degree were welfare issues come into play)

 

Many bred true for certain traits but not all.

 

 

Its not that difficult to fix traits,esp. in dogs of similar type

 

I disagree it takes years and generations to get uniformity and true breeding animals so ask for you to provide data to prove your theroy.

 

We all now that "Heritability can be made larger by diversifying the genetic background, e.g., by using only very outbred individuals which increases the Variance"

 

Which is what has happened with the bull cross by breeding back to the home strain .the bull genes dispersed into the homestrians ..no plan was made and the genes were scattered.

 

So what happens the home strain or old blood is mingled and as above we see dogs that resemble the plummer terrier..like i said nothing hard to see about this breeding back idea line breed back to the home strain and bingo we have look alikes.

 

But these look alikes are jackal and Hyde's...due to variance of there ancestors . I doubt there are any owners of bull blooded dogs that can prove beyond doubt that there studs or bitches are totally homozygous for all traits.

 

Im open to be proven wrong..but please don't just keep posting up pics of smart plummers this means nothing at all.

 

I have a 3/4 bred welsh cob that im told by top judges looks more true to standard than a purebred but she has inherited many faults that cant be seen ....including genetic variance!

 

 

Again my piont is that the origanl aims as listed above of owd plum were not reached ..proove me wrong!..anyone.

[EPTR 4]

"the bull blood has made no difference workwise whatso ever"

 

Surely to be unbiased and to be able to judge this you would have to worked pre bull blooded stuff. I don't recall you back then owning or working them at all..never mind breeding them.

 

Like i said experience of these dogs before and after are limited to ..nobody!

 

Controversially "they are all plumemrs etc etc now " move etc etc . Will the KC think so we will see.

[phantomflanflinger 24]

WHY ALL THE FUSS THE PLUMMER IS A X BRED END OF STORY ,

SOME WORK SOME DONT KNOW DIFFERANT FROM ANY OTHER CROSS

BRED TERRIER ,

[tinytiger 826]

THE PUREBERD CAN STAND ALONE AND HAVE PROVEN TO SINCE QUITE CONSDIERBALY WELL HERE THEY HAVE. Translation?

 

 

The adtition of outcross blood to the eptr regiter was a polictal move only. If, as you have claimed, there were enough "pures" to perpetuate and improve on,why allow "new blood" onto your register at all? What "political" motive? It seems hypocritical to pour scorn on them yet allow them to be registered IMO.

 

I believe Brian was referring to the f1/f2 re; doubling. Obviously line breeding is required to fix desired traits, but this can be achieved relatively quickly with dogs of similar type eg. terriers rather than completely different types,say collie x terrier.

Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygosity regardless of the percentage of geniality.

 

 

Politics..we accepted the new blood as i believed at the time we had no choice if we were going to get the breed registered every move made by any club would be blocked by norma and the so called club ..PTCGB..However subsequently things have moved on and we are now in a different spot.

 

The Kc cant forever listen to individuals and unstructured minorities over the majority's.

 

Breeding wise linebreeding fixing traits (most common stratergy of breeders of livestock) ,,etc yes but . you have completly lost me with..

 

"Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygousity regardless of the percentage of geniality...NEVER HEARD THIS PHRASE BEFORE "percenrtage of geniality "IN GENETCIS CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN ME.

 

Surely the amount, the % of "common kin blood " and the ( coe of inbreedimg) "F" value reduces heterozygosity and increase homozygosity..well it does in all my books so far!

 

 

Wiki gives us this..

 

"The probability that two alleles at a given locus are identical by descent. ie The extent to which an individual is more likely to be homozygous rather than heterozygous because of related parents "

 

"Heritability can be made larger by diversifying the genetic background, e.g., by using only very outbred individuals which increases the Variance"

 

 

Withot going into breeding plans..and arguieng what is and isnt the best breedimng plan .. I simply have illustrated to those that have these outcross blooded animals that none of the aims can be claimed to have been reached. IMO.

 

If they had they would have been documented and proven beyond doubt in the ten years they have been about. When the epts application goes to the KC I have no choice but to produce and sourrender my theories on the subject . Having seen many generations of pureberds and have documented their rise and the ailments they possess. Justifying brians last atempt "have his way" will be at the very least taxing...without the fruits of his ideas and not his labours, for all to be seen.

 

Good informative posts there EPTR, I think that stormyboy (correct me if im wrong SB) was trying to say that sometimes breedings dont pan out according to the percentages,i.e they may throw to an ancestor of the dog that you are trying to duplicate,or by some twist of fate seemingly inherit nothing from a signifigant ancestor and be a replica in all ways of some less signifigant one.A good example would be the greyhound "slaneyside Hare"

who was considered by many (due to type/variety of pups,their temperments etc.) to be the reincarnation of his great ,great grandfather "Monalee champion" ,who also occurred once a generation further back on his damline (9.4% altogether)>hardly inbred to him.

My own outcross bitch jazz (12.5% bull via nine) seemingly brought nothing from her bull ancestor appearance wise yet threw a"purebred " plummer daughter nearly twice her size.The mating i did twixt her and the 55lb pitbull revealed just how hetrozygous she was(carrying rednosed red,chocolate,tricolour,brindle,classic plummer markings ) .The mating between her plummer marked half sibling offspring produced all plummer marked pups (5).

I didnt get papers with her when i got her-hopefully i might bump into her breeder at a game fair over the summer and find out the rest of her breeding(shes R.I.P now),as a worker, ive seen harder ,more punishing dogs of various breeds(owned a few) but nothing ever sent the shivers up and down my spine like watching her work.Ill try and get a picture that i could post(any would be on my ex fiancees digital camera>so possibly not the easiest thing for m,e to aquire.)

A.t.b john