Plummer terriers

[The Fox hunter 0]

Some good points raised there lads. Back on the working track,Does anyone or has anyone worked the "new blood" (bull oc.) to ground? They seem to be decent hunters from what i've seen on some forums and some very tidy lookers. (I know looks dont mean a lot,just an observation)I'm told they're a little more placid than the old blood temperament wise.

THIS QUESTION IS NOT ASKED TO STIR ANY CRAP ABOUT WHETHER IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED OR NOT-THATS HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH-ITS DONE,LIVE WITH IT!

I havent seen them work so cant comment. It would be nice to hear from those that do work them.

 

ive had some success with sassy. she is an oc bitch and has done a little. she is however to big to be an out an out earthdog. but has bolted a few foxes to date and is keen to start the winter doing any legal pest control. nothing special but does the job and is a first rate top dog

 

 

There you go a wasted mating (accidently on purpose of course) of a fantastic wyremead bitch to a massive oc dog ! One of the best working lines in the country polluted by pet bull blood dog!..(well done Brian great idea )..job sorted Imo of course,no offense intended.

not accidentally on purpose, though if I'd known it would produce a bitch like sassy it would have been. Actually the massive oc dog, a grandson of pepsi, is no bigger than the fantastic wyremead bitch, both sharing the same grandam/gt grandam in pepsi, so yes I'd imagine Sassys nose is very good indeed...as is the nose of the bitch I kept back after a subsequent deliberate mating, and that of her sister.

 

"massive oc dog" Sassys sire,at the front of the photo..fantastic wyremead bitch behind him

 

 

A photo don't do it justice (the bitch that is)nor the dog !!!!

 

Proposing that Pepsi's blood (18%)(though good ) gives "the required nose and hunting ability" nose is wrong..bad temepr from vandals son tizer (who we taped biting the judge 3 times maybe) think you'l find in time that the better noses shines through from firebird via luca...probably the best nosed plummer male yet and proven producer of the the cream of the working plummers about.

 

NOT ACCIDENTLY ON PURPOSE THEN ..... ACCINDENTLY..YEA RIGHT ..WE BELIVE YOU...

 

BIT LIKE ROTHYS JILL HAVING PUPS TO JACK BEFORE SHE WAS 12MONTHS OLD !! AFTER JACK CLIMBED THE 8FOOT CHAINLINK FENCE TO LINE HER. ...SUSPECT BREEDER !!

 

But IMO to actually want to introduce none working unknown pet bull dog blood into a very good if not top plummer line is for me diluting the cream into milk IMO of course ..nobody has yet to come up for a valid reason for it ..would love to hear one. Hence most breed back to the origanl ..stuff By doing a delibertae mating!

Well said mate...Keep the pure line's going!!

[Cleanspade 3,322]

Some good points raised there lads. Back on the working track,Does anyone or has anyone worked the "new blood" (bull oc.) to ground? They seem to be decent hunters from what i've seen on some forums and some very tidy lookers. (I know looks dont mean a lot,just an observation)I'm told they're a little more placid than the old blood temperament wise.

THIS QUESTION IS NOT ASKED TO STIR ANY CRAP ABOUT WHETHER IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN INTRODUCED OR NOT-THATS HAS BEEN DONE TO DEATH-ITS DONE,LIVE WITH IT!

I havent seen them work so cant comment. It would be nice to hear from those that do work them.

 

ive had some success with sassy. she is an oc bitch and has done a little. she is however to big to be an out an out earthdog. but has bolted a few foxes to date and is keen to start the winter doing any legal pest control. nothing special but does the job and is a first rate top dog

 

 

There you go a wasted mating (accidently on purpose of course) of a fantastic wyremead bitch to a massive oc dog ! One of the best working lines in the country polluted by pet bull blood dog!..(well done Brian great idea )..job sorted Imo of course,no offense intended.

not accidentally on purpose, though if I'd known it would produce a bitch like sassy it would have been. Actually the massive oc dog, a grandson of pepsi, is no bigger than the fantastic wyremead bitch, both sharing the same grandam/gt grandam in pepsi, so yes I'd imagine Sassys nose is very good indeed...as is the nose of the bitch I kept back after a subsequent deliberate mating, and that of her sister.

 

"massive oc dog" Sassys sire,at the front of the photo..fantastic wyremead bitch behind him

 

 

A photo don't do it justice (the bitch that is)nor the dog !!!!

 

Proposing that Pepsi's blood (18%)(though good ) gives "the required nose and hunting ability" nose is wrong..bad temepr from vandals son tizer (who we taped biting the judge 3 times maybe) think you'l find in time that the better noses shines through from firebird via luca...probably the best nosed plummer male yet and proven producer of the the cream of the working plummers about.

 

NOT ACCIDENTLY ON PURPOSE THEN ..... ACCINDENTLY..YEA RIGHT ..WE BELIVE YOU...

 

BIT LIKE ROTHYS JILL HAVING PUPS TO JACK BEFORE SHE WAS 12MONTHS OLD !! AFTER JACK CLIMBED THE 8FOOT CHAINLINK FENCE TO LINE HER. ...SUSPECT BREEDER !!

 

But IMO to actually want to introduce none working unknown pet bull dog blood into a very good if not top plummer line is for me diluting the cream into milk IMO of course ..nobody has yet to come up for a valid reason for it ..would love to hear one. Hence most breed back to the origanl ..stuff By doing a delibertae mating!

 

my bitch sassy has the steadiest temprement of all my terriers. and that includes my russells her nose is decent she has drive stamina she is strong with good bone. a good solid bitch that can work day in and day out without loseing any condition reasons enough for me. she aint a typical plummer. and is doing well enough in the field. a lot of these attributes come from the bull of that i'm certain

as for the wyremead blood. maybe she is doing well not becouse but despite of it. as for constant referances to the bull blood. you would think you was trying to lead folk into a debate that you will know all about i have seen the ped and there is good blood in the bull lines also.

 

 

 

 

the only valid reason there is. workers. the proof is in the pudding.

thanks for the bitch keeps. she suits me fine and was cheap as chips

 

[Cleanspade 3,322]

 

 

 

just to add sassy is a good ferreting dog and works well with the lurcher. although she has gone to ground and bolted a few foxes. i aint bigging her up as a digging dog. she aint she is a good allround pester and there is so much shit about the plummer that its good to try and show some positives

[stormyboy 1,352]

Positives? theres always ONE going to spoil it

Edited July 9, 2010 by stormyboy

[EPTR 4]

"Maybe shes doing well because of the bull blood ..." ...i doubt it as the first gen were soon "bred back asap" to get some "ability and looks " in them.

 

Temprement ...I would argue that the bull cross did'nt improve temprememnt..Id arguie that its not a common attribute of the said breeds blood.

 

IMO if these were good or considered by owners better than the original stock then surely the old PTCB and its hardcore working members would have set up a public register for line bred studs of highly prized bull blooded dogs .

 

If a breeder somewhere is line breeding back to "hallowed hayley" and offering all the qualities she stood for in a stud dog then he or she is very quite about it! The lack of such seems to suggest the oposite to me

 

Since this last display of brian's sad dummy spitting incident 10 years ago there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm to maintain any sort of public register of the said new blood its all been diluted back. .

 

Nobody has asked me to locate a bull blooded stud ever "yet", for a female.

 

IMO now those that bought into the "great plan " of Brian's all seem slightly embarrassed now and try to justify thier ownership, (see above) along with ...

 

Their dogs ability, its temperament and all that their dogs and Brian's ideas. stood for (but that plan if there was one seems to be lost in the mists of time) ..yet 99% of these owner/breeders breed back to purebreds studs when the time comes (if they have sense) WHy?

 

I maybe wrong someone somewhere may well be producing this great line of dogs that have captured and locked in the so called attributes of Hayley that Brian wished to inject but Ive yet to see them in any number...unless you call attitude an "attribute" . I know rothy did.

 

Can anyone who owns one of these "newblooded dogs" come forth and honestly say with experince of both old and new that there has been a improvement and that the "plan to lock in the traits" has worked

 

Its been some considerable time now so surely somone knows of some breeder that has made an all round improvement (otherwise whats the piont) and has a good case....

 

We have new blooded dogs on our register now as many know but there numbers are little and now low % .

 

 

It was only becasue the successfull blocking of the PTa's aplication by NP and rothy to the KC ment we had to accept the bood and hope that the blood was diluted .

 

We have and the blood is diluted now . For those not seeking KC recognition ( you know them the grafting earth dogs lads and lasses that attend or arrange all the "open" shows every weekened) then im sure their plans to contiune "playing out Brian's ideas" will continue ....that is as long as they have the ability of nipping bck for some origanl blood

[fireman 10,859]

Those bull blooded dogs were allways ment to go back to pure breds AS YOU WELL KNOW,so that drawn out statement putting them down is again glen imo you trying to big yourself up AGAIN and it does really show what a sad little tw*t you really are to keep on doing that glen .Can't you get your misses to pat you on the head and say "yes glen your allways right" save us having to put up with you trying to boost your ego.

[samba 534]

Those bull blooded dogs were allways ment to go back to pure breds AS YOU WELL KNOW,so that drawn out statement putting them down is again glen imo you trying to big yourself up AGAIN and it does really show what a sad little tw*t you really are to keep on doing that glen .Can't you get your misses to pat you on the head and say "yes glen your allways right" save us having to put up with you trying to boost your ego.

didnt the plummer have bull in them originally before he did it again so whats

the problem mr welsby

[stormyboy 1,352]

The o.c. were intended to go back to "pure" bred dogs. Brian advised against doubling on the bull i believe.

From photos ive seen, there are some tidy dogs emerging now.

As a point of interest, while the pta have voted not to allow "new" blood onto their register,the epta have, despite the VERY vociferous dislike and scorn poured on them by their founder!

Surely these eptr dogs, lauded as the cream of plummers,should be able to stand alone without the addition of "inferior" blood?

Btw hayley was a bitch,so would offer very few qualities as a stud dog!

Edited July 11, 2010 by stormyboy

[mackay 3,308]

"Maybe shes doing well because of the bull blood ..." ...i doubt it as the first gen were soon "bred back asap" to get some "ability and looks " in them.

 

Temprement ...I would argue that the bull cross did'nt improve temprememnt..Id arguie that its not a common attribute of the said breeds blood.

 

IMO if these were good or considered by owners better than the original stock then surely the old PTCB and its hardcore working members would have set up a public register for line bred studs of highly prized bull blooded dogs .

 

If a breeder somewhere is line breeding back to "hallowed hayley" and offering all the qualities she stood for in a stud dog then he or she is very quite about it! The lack of such seems to suggest the oposite to me

 

Since this last display of brian's sad dummy spitting incident 10 years ago there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm to maintain any sort of public register of the said new blood its all been diluted back. .

 

Nobody has asked me to locate a bull blooded stud ever "yet", for a female.

 

IMO now those that bought into the "great plan " of Brian's all seem slightly embarrassed now and try to justify thier ownership, (see above) along with ...

 

Their dogs ability, its temperament and all that their dogs and Brian's ideas. stood for (but that plan if there was one seems to be lost in the mists of time) ..yet 99% of these owner/breeders breed back to purebreds studs when the time comes (if they have sense) WHy?

 

I maybe wrong someone somewhere may well be producing this great line of dogs that have captured and locked in the so called attributes of Hayley that Brian wished to inject but Ive yet to see them in any number...unless you call attitude an "attribute" . I know rothy did.

 

Can anyone who owns one of these "newblooded dogs" come forth and honestly say with experince of both old and new that there has been a improvement and that the "plan to lock in the traits" has worked

 

Its been some considerable time now so surely somone knows of some breeder that has made an all round improvement (otherwise whats the piont) and has a good case....

 

We have new blooded dogs on our register now as many know but there numbers are little and now low % .

 

 

It was only becasue the successfull blocking of the PTa's aplication by NP and rothy to the KC ment we had to accept the bood and hope that the blood was diluted .

 

We have and the blood is diluted now . For those not seeking KC recognition ( you know them the grafting earth dogs lads and lasses that attend or arrange all the "open" shows every weekened) then im sure their plans to contiune "playing out Brian's ideas" will continue ....that is as long as they have the ability of nipping bck for some origanl blood

 

Was at Raggengill in Abington twice weekly in all the time Brian was alive, seen a few (not a lot of Plummer terriers) unsociable quarallsome little b*stards, the one thing that was blatantly obvious and I'm not saying the correct bull blood was used or bull blood was the way to go for that matter, but the pups I saw, Seven, nine and Lucy had a far better temperament than the Plummers gone before them, so to say the bull blood didn't improve temperament isn't accurate.

[captain jack sparrow 8]

a long read that,as long as it works what you want it for even showing should be

good enough for yourself and no one elses buisness,

you get failed dogs in all terriers as well as lurchers

[EPTR 4]

The o.c. were intended to go back to "pure" bred dogs. Brian advised against doubling on the bull i believe.

From photos ive seen, there are some tidy dogs emerging now.

As a point of interest, while the pta have voted not to allow "new" blood onto their register,the epta have, despite the VERY vociferous dislike and scorn poured on them by their founder!

Surely these eptr dogs, lauded as the cream of plummers,should be able to stand alone without the addition of "inferior" blood?

Btw hayley was a bitch,so would offer very few qualities as a stud dog!

 

 

THE PUREBERD CAN STAND ALONE AND HAVE PROVEN TO SINCE QUITE CONSDIERBALY WELL HERE THEY HAVE.

 

The adtition of outcross blood to the eptr regiter was a polictal move only.

 

 

Apprently according to a leading authority .. outcross was inteneded to a job of

 

"correcting numerous faults " which apprently were "constantly occurring"

 

Fact is the most common desaeses were at around 1% of the total popultion.

 

The breed appraently "desperately needed an outcross" in order to bring the breed back into line ...whatever that means.

 

 

 

It is also stated that the outcross would "eliminate hereditary defects that have become so common" but not only that would " improve conformation,"... especially head size and bone structure."

 

Now as a breeder of these terriers I would say with experince that one injection of a another breed without subsequent back crosses and a line breeding stratergy would have less than any effect on reaching its aims. However it would inject undesribales.

 

Anyone website / breeder worth their salt, would not make such a sweaping statement and as you say BILL it was "Brians intention to breed back and not double up"... then the requiste attributes are scattreed like leaves in a gale with the first mating. if you read on and learn a littkle about breeding then you will see that last remark "doubling up " is somewhere nearer the real way to go about it ... than a simple "quick dip" into a completely different breed"

 

I quote a man who is quoted as being " One of the fathers of the German Shepherd" in the usa.

 

"When Should Outcross Be Made?

 

In answering this question, I can give no better advice than that advanced by Dr. Daglish: "To ask when an outcross should be made in a certain number of generations is like asking on which days of the week one should carry an umbrella." It seems to be a popular belief that bringing in new blood every once in awhile, or even with every breeding, must be beneficial after line breeding and inbreeding have been practiced for a few generations, but it is absolutely the opposite of the truth "

 

Every experienced breeder knows that, perhaps more often than not, the offspring of a first-generation outcross of two excellent animals show many of the good points of their parents. That is why, when so many of those first generation puppies from outcross matings are doing well in the show ring, their breeders, and others who have noted this, rush to make similar breedings. They will undoubtedly learn, as I did, that the youngsters of succeeding generations of outcross breeding will be a heterogeneous lot, showing an absolute lack of uniformity. This will not only prevent those breeders from developing and holding a proper type, but will help to make their breed one of even further differing types in size and proportion

 

 

"I quote Onstott: "Any virtues which may be added to a strain through out-crossing . . . cannot be looked upon as inherent in that strain UNTIL THEY HAVE BEEN PURIFIED AND FIXED WITHIN THAT STRAIN THROUGH INBREEDING

 

Out crossing is only to be employed as a means to an end and as a preliminary to the FIXATION of its good results, if any, through inbreeding."

So affter reading the above from the worlds leading breeder of GSD's , id say the outcross "plan has failed" as the results were not fixed by a stratergy or a plan of inbreeding to purfiy the qualities and FIX them .

 

"In reaching out, through outcross blood, to obtain some wanted characteristic not present in his strain, or to correct a fault he has not been able to eliminate from it through closed-up breeding, a breeder should make the outcross as partial as possible. In other words, he should obtain the desired correction or improvement through using a stud possessing the needed trait, and who is also, if possible, related to his own strainthe more closely related the better. Through this procedure he may save himself from the necessity of generations of breeding to regain the virtues already in his strain as well as hold those he obtained by out crossing. This is true because out ]crossing is quite as likely to destroy the good traits already possessed as to add others which are missing and desired."

 

So those advocating the outcross programme saying "brian new what he was doing " obviuosly had no idea how to go about an outcross plan and just went with the flow...one eyed man leading the blind.

 

The one eyed man has now left it in the hands of the few ..who in my opinion either have no idea on how to continue the "plan" .

Edited July 12, 2010 by EPTR

[J Darcy 5,871]

"Maybe shes doing well because of the bull blood ..." ...i doubt it as the first gen were soon "bred back asap" to get some "ability and looks " in them.

 

Temprement ...I would argue that the bull cross did'nt improve temprememnt..Id arguie that its not a common attribute of the said breeds blood.

 

IMO if these were good or considered by owners better than the original stock then surely the old PTCB and its hardcore working members would have set up a public register for line bred studs of highly prized bull blooded dogs .

 

If a breeder somewhere is line breeding back to "hallowed hayley" and offering all the qualities she stood for in a stud dog then he or she is very quite about it! The lack of such seems to suggest the oposite to me

 

Since this last display of brian's sad dummy spitting incident 10 years ago there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm to maintain any sort of public register of the said new blood its all been diluted back. .

 

Nobody has asked me to locate a bull blooded stud ever "yet", for a female.

 

IMO now those that bought into the "great plan " of Brian's all seem slightly embarrassed now and try to justify thier ownership, (see above) along with ...

 

Their dogs ability, its temperament and all that their dogs and Brian's ideas. stood for (but that plan if there was one seems to be lost in the mists of time) ..yet 99% of these owner/breeders breed back to purebreds studs when the time comes (if they have sense) WHy?

 

I maybe wrong someone somewhere may well be producing this great line of dogs that have captured and locked in the so called attributes of Hayley that Brian wished to inject but Ive yet to see them in any number...unless you call attitude an "attribute" . I know rothy did.

 

Can anyone who owns one of these "newblooded dogs" come forth and honestly say with experince of both old and new that there has been a improvement and that the "plan to lock in the traits" has worked

 

Its been some considerable time now so surely somone knows of some breeder that has made an all round improvement (otherwise whats the piont) and has a good case....

 

We have new blooded dogs on our register now as many know but there numbers are little and now low % .

 

 

It was only becasue the successfull blocking of the PTa's aplication by NP and rothy to the KC ment we had to accept the bood and hope that the blood was diluted .

 

We have and the blood is diluted now . For those not seeking KC recognition ( you know them the grafting earth dogs lads and lasses that attend or arrange all the "open" shows every weekened) then im sure their plans to contiune "playing out Brian's ideas" will continue ....that is as long as they have the ability of nipping bck for some origanl blood

 

Was at Raggengill in Abington twice weekly in all the time Brian was alive, seen a few (not a lot of Plummer terriers) unsociable quarallsome little b*stards, the one thing that was blatantly obvious and I'm not saying the correct bull blood was used or bull blood was the way to go for that matter, but the pups I saw, Seven, nine and Lucy had a far better temperament than the Plummers gone before them, so to say the bull blood didn't improve temperament isn't accurate.

 

 

Many years ago now i had chance to see one of those original plummer/bulls from that first (Nine's litter) mating work. The dog was a big strong type. Solid.But I'm afraid it was useless at working. Indeed, the lad who had the dog had tried it in every earth situation possible and it was totally useless.It was afraid of anything with teeth.

It was a cracking looking dog, but looks don't get foxes.

I will try and dig out an old photo of that dog if i can find one.

[Big bald beautiful 1,231]

Saw lucy work and was tested , also saw another simalar bred dog work.

a bit big and not an oil painting but did more then most

[EPTR 4]

I can't find any illustatrion be that written on website or in hard copy that the outcross "plan" was carried out to improve working ability.

 

My conversation with DBp when asking if he had recieved my video of the first lancaster show judged by jk "hayeleys owner"..was one sided as usual with DBP,, He bleated on about "we need to improve heads in the bitchs" i disagreed that an outcross even then was needed..IMO ONE CAN'T JUDGE A BREED FROM A RANDOM SELECTION OF DOGS AT A POORELY ANTENDED SHOW...VIA VIDEO.!

 

I do agree that the breed is in need of some good educated breeders ..to help the educated few.

 

I would love to see in hand or in photos the improvements made by this oc programme..we have allready heard from one owner admitting size is a problem.

 

I have seen first hand one nearly bite the face of the owners baby.

 

I have been asked to rehome 3 bitters all legion bred which i refused .

 

Any improvements can only be judged by someone who has seen worked and lived with generations of the before and afters...and there are virtulay none of those

available, with such experiance.

 

 

But i would love to hear from the main breders of these oc dogs that claim there has been an all round improvement...and all of them are looking in now . most are first time buyers and have been unfortuenlty hudwinked .

 

The only step in my eyes is to first admit this to themselves and take steps to get around it..many have, admittedly "bred back " and abandoned the "great plan" .

 

No big deal easy.

[The Fox hunter 0]

Saw lucy work and was tested , also saw another simalar bred dog work.

a bit big and not an oil painting but did more then most

Glen are the Plummers still ageing prematurely?Or is this a problem that it no longer with them?