Plummer terriers

[parksie 2]

surely every terrierman/woman has been a first timer at some stage. and if every one that bred terriers never sold, ( sorry gave) a terrier pup to a first timer, pretty soon terriermen and the working the working terrier as we know it, would be no more. surely every terrierman/woman deserves the chance to prove themself, as does evey dog????????

 

Anyone fancy giving me a pup??? Got running dogs but have mates that do a bit of pest control with their terriers and have an empty space in my kennels so I'd be interested if anyones got a pup going free.

[Cleanspade 3,322]

WELL LADS ,

 

I HONESTLY THINK THIS FELLA WAS DROPPED ON HIS HEAD AS A BABY ..........

 

THERES OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING QUITE WRONG WITH HIM AND I FOR ONE WONT MOCK THE AFFLICTED

 

 

MAYBE TIME TO LEAVE THIS LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND TO HIS OWN LITTLE WORLD

 

 

DUCKWING

 

[EPTR 4]

Glenn if you read back through you will see that I have asked two questions and both seem to have been ignored...?

One was are you saying that Vandal wasn't a Plummer?

And the other was how many foxes have YOU taken in the last season with YOUR terriers?

Thanks

Sorry to have missed this one but not ignored, wondered what bill was on about my sincere apologies, mark.

 

Vandal, was he a Plummer with 28% vampire blood a halfbred jrt.? Plummer.. he and others then for PR purposes was named plummer terriers as were so many but they were not true breeding enough to be called a breed...others bred more true as well...but then when you consider vandals pedigree, how could they have been when the fathers sire was crossbred and the rest of the pedigree mongrelized. Offspirng from vandal sometimes resembled other breeds a sign of homozygosity . AS DID MANY ..AS I SADI BEFORE THEY WERE INGREDIENTS ...Brian himself bred variables by the dozen due to homozygosity I had one .

 

Name me any of Brians dogs ever that have no other breed blood in them for more than 4 generations ..you will find none.

 

His famous vampire halfbred 50% jrt minimum

Omega 37% jrt

One of the last dogs he bred nailer over 28% jrt numerous jrt and fells in just 4 generations .

 

 

As for Fox work none no need foxes dont take my fish.the water must be to cold for them,or snorkels interfere with there senses lol.

 

Would be nice to have some local foxes to play with but to tell you the truth they aren't numerous enough here due to keepers and digging foxes and taken piccys of the reults is a sad macho thing i grew out of.

 

If i encounter one then great (prefer hunting the rat and used to love mink hunting with my pack but thats illegal now !! :sick: )but seeking out earths on a wet sunday morning digging great big holes in the ground to see me terrier working a fox not really my scene anymore as i said before bin there done that in my youth. Prefer others who work there dogs to prove my lines instincts.

 

 

There's no art to fox work had terriers at hunt service and with loners who give me feed back..and as stated before have had a recent report my x stud now a pet lost to ground on foxy loxy. Infact his son tylos was to ground for 2 hours at a fox. The lad dug him out and gave the fox best. Good enough for me the dog though bred from many none earth dogs did what he thought was right...nearly cost the lad his dog mind but thats a different story. And in true irish fashion promtly lined his patterdale with him !!

 

 

Theres no art to fox work,a bold statement indeed.By saying that it shows that you have never done it to any standard.Glenn the fox is the only legal quarry that you can truly test your offspring on.You say that you have been there and done that now grown out of it.Several years back you said to me that you hadn't really done any earthwork as you couldn't find foxes around your way,which also says a lot for you as a working terrierman.

Everyone has different standards.As I said in an earlier post some say their dogs work and only take two or three a season,and others may take a hundred.I have seen many terriers look good for a few digs then when the workload gets a bit heavier throw the towel in.I have seen many terriers put out to a hunt and never get worked properly.A lot of people seem to think that hunt work is the ultimate thing, but I can honestly say that some of the worst standards of terrierwork that I have ever witnessed were hunt terriermen.

Glenn I really fail to see why anyone would farm a dog out to give it work.I would want to enter the young dogs myself, to make sure that it was done what I would call properly and I would want to witness them at their work so that I could judge them for myself and not take other peoples words for it as I have said we all have different ideas.

How do you know the stud was lost to ground on a fox?Did they get the fox out?

The other lad you say he dug the fox and give it best?Did he or couldn't he get the fox with the dog?If you were working them yourself you would know these things firsthand.

There seems to be an awful lot of Plummers lost and assumed lost whilst heroically working a fox,(Proteous) being one.You say Tylos was 2 hours to ground on a fox good enough for me.So are you rating the dog as good enough for you as in to breed from?After 2 hours on a fox,he could have been stuck or blocked himself in.As I have said many look good even for a season then quit.It is a shame that the Plummers are no longer being properly tested as there were and probably are still some that are very good foxdogs.I actually had one myself.I have also dug many times to some of Vandals offspring and still do on occassions.Some of the best earthworking Plummers came from Bills kennels. I just wish that he was still producing his stuff.A mate of mine had a daughter of Vandal and mated her back to her sire and all the progeny from that mating were outstanding in the ground and as good a terriers as I have seen on fox.

Mark.

 

 

Where do i start

 

I wont start with lines like this.... "By saying that it shows that you have never done it to any standard." so my fox working standards arent the same as yours... whatever standard theres is!

 

My fox working days were in my teens and in my twenties.I have worked terriers and mongrols to foxes and fells and russels and plummers to have enough knowledge to say that theres no art to it..my opinion yours may differ as many do on here.

 

I certainly am not going into the "ive had more foxes than you rubbish" as most cant prove it anyway.

 

So ..you say..

 

"Glenn I really fail to see why anyone would farm a dog out to give it work.I would want to enter the young dogs myself, to make sure that it was done what I would call properly and I would want to witness them at their work so that I could judge them for myself and not take other peoples words for it as I have said we all have different ideas.

How do you know the stud was lost to ground on a fox?Did they get the fox out?

The other lad you say he dug the fox and give it best?Did he or couldn't he get the fox with the dog?If you were working them yourself you would know these things firsthand."

 

I should have said... that i had "GIVEN" the above dogs away. After i do when i have finished with them.

 

One dog was "farmed away " jazz to be proven and he did just that!.

 

But in an ideal world then yes i would love to be able to pop out and have a quick play with foxy..but then life is not always so easy...however that deos'nt bother me so much as it seems to bother "real teriermen on here"

 

Tylos and his sire Ransum both were given away these are the dogs i refered too sorry if it came across that they were "farmed out" to prove themselves with someone else ..for me ..if they work well for the new owner then fine .

 

But if i had a friend relialble and close by to work my terriers to fox for me then bingo letem get on with digging great holes...

 

 

Any fox work is an advatage to any terrier of mine when they leave here they usualy do well and i have good reports back...some mink hunting only dogs like tylos go on and entertain their new owners with varied sport.

 

Your assumptions on Tylos little 2 hour stint are just that assumptions in the negative...but then i expected this would be the case.

 

Proteus (bred by plummer) was dug by me many times before he went to wales to hunt service were he didnt last long as he was the hardest plummer terrier ive ever seen work fox or seen take a pain.Price witnessed this in wales after he stayed when rocky and 6 other of prices best terrier did'nt ..infact rocky didnt find at all.If i recall and we dog 8 feet thro clay before proteus herd us and bolted the fox which was duely missed by prices shotgun.. ( Proteus was sent to hunt due to his fighting and behaviuor i was sick to death of his "attitude") it was either that or was old on and i really didnt fancy that one knowing his bad temper would see him shot...if thats "farming on".. so be it.

 

It is a shame that theres not enough Plummers working fox but then theres not alot of plummers anyway..compared to the rest. but im no big belive in only "worker to worker".. romantic drivel..

 

Vandal to his own daughter and "all the progeny from that mating were outstanding in the ground and as good a terriers as I have seen on fox.

..mmmmm well done !

 

 

You mentioned you "I actually had one myself" I presume this was red as my records say you only had red born 96 ..or did you re-invest?

[Bosun11 537]

WELL LADS ,

 

I HONESTLY THINK THIS FELLA WAS DROPPED ON HIS HEAD AS A BABY ..........

 

THERES OBVIOUSLY SOMETHING QUITE WRONG WITH HIM AND I FOR ONE WONT MOCK THE AFFLICTED

 

 

MAYBE TIME TO LEAVE THIS LEGEND IN HIS OWN MIND TO HIS OWN LITTLE WORLD

 

 

DUCKWING

 

 

 

[stormyboy 1,352]

Still no answer. smoke and piss. enough said.

[busterfish 0]

Keeps..Nice dodge...I meant why take it in the first place or buy one for beating as no terrier is the equal of a well bred gundog

 

 

Or as skatty as a springer

[wippydoo 12]

i read much about breeders crossing their dogs in order to produce hybrid vigour and it really gets my goat when this is quoted.HYBRID vigour only occurs when two SPECIES are crossed ie a horse and donkey not two members of the same species.

http://home.comcast.net/~NoPuppyMillsVA/Poo-dogs___Designer_Mutts/Hybrid_Vigor/hybrid_vigor.html

[JR Yipp 111]

i think hybrid vigour would apply to plummers tho..... im sure he would of used wolf in his breeding, he used just about everyother mungrel he could get his hands on.

[tinytiger 822]

i read much about breeders crossing their dogs in order to produce hybrid vigour and it really gets my goat when this is quoted.HYBRID vigour only occurs when two SPECIES are crossed ie a horse and donkey not two members of the same species.

http://home.comcast....brid_vigor.html

 

 

why have the last 9 or 10 english and irish greyhound derby winners been first cross australian x irish/english bloodlines.I get what you are trying to say but the same rules apply, just to a lesser extent than with mules. I.M.O both sides need to be fairly inbred(and good) to get it.

[wippydoo 12]

im not questioning what youre doing im questioning what you THINK youre doing.if you have as much a knowledge of genetics and phenotype and genotype as you say then why call what youre doing by this name when its obviously NOT what youre doing.you can only get hybrid vigour by crossing a species to another species not crossing one breed of dog to another. thats just breeding crossbreeds.makes no difference if its greys or terriers. inbreeding,linebreeding and outcrossing and the genetic inheritance achieved by doing so are different ways of a breeder maintaining or achieving different traits in his line.hybridisation is a different thing again, but thats NOT what you are doing

Edited June 10, 2010 by wippydoo

[half n' half 8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

[tinytiger 822]

http://en.wikipedia....ybrid_(biology)

 

 

thanks half n half, intra-specific hybrid thats the one. Wippydoo:theres no point getting bogged down with semantics ,I KNOW WHAT I MEAN AND SO DO YOU.-words are only sounds people put meaning to and have nothing to do with how your dog performs

[EPTR 4]

Going off subject abit do these plummer terriers throw the odd rough coated ones as those D.B.P left behind [bANNED TEXT] he left s.yorks were rough haired but one i saw was a similar coulour to those of today.

[/quote.]

 

This one saw some earthwork but her coat was rubbish,she looked like a miniture rough collie.There were a few times in snowy freezing conditions when she had icicles hanging off her,it was ridiculous.If it hadnt been for the coat id have kept her myself.Her brother in the pic had a good thick smooth jacket.

I wouldnt think there will be many like her around now,i also saw crappy coats from terriers bred down from Gena.No good in cold,wet weather.

 

Pointer I can say that I've never seen a Plummer with a coat like that. I have videos of some of Genas (brian bred her and called her jael) pups one looked similar to the pale nosed lilty coated one on the left. The right one looks more typical of todays stuff.

 

Gena produced very few good coated terriers from what i saw when she was up here but those that were good coats inhertited it from her sire side...infact most of the good ones resmebled his conformation.

 

Rough/loose coats are a no no in plummers now..well that is untill someone says they should be rough coated and wacks a load in.! plummers do suffer in winter with there coats but I had a fell that was typical and she got just as wet and suffrered just as much ..so im not really sure it makes that much difference.

 

I recall talk of Brian wanting tidy looking teriers, with tight coats etc,..so his standard resulted in this.

 

As a matter of pure interest these terriers,pictured how are they bred?

[wippydoo 12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)

 

 

and if you click on canid hybrids it takes you to this page.i rest my case

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canid_hybrid

SPECIES not BREED

Tinytiger im not being pedantic about this, you mentioned breeding for hybrid vigour which if you do know anything about genetics you ARENT doing.dont call one thing by the name of another, anyone who doesnt know anything about genetics reading your post will believe what you are saying whereas anyone who does know anything about genetics and dog breeding will of course know different.its wrong to put things like this in the public domain as thats how myths and misinformation start.before you know it every numpty reading this will be quoting you and saying ive crossed my russell with a plummer cos im breeding for hybrid vigour!

Edited June 10, 2010 by wippydoo

[pointer 543]

Those dogs are the result of an accidental brother/sister mating.Both parents were Mask/Alice bred by CP.

The bitch in the pic had a crap coat but it was better than the half dozen or so terriers i saw out of Gena or a Gena daughter.

 

Im not too keen on modern day plummer coats,they have nothing to them.Brian might have wanted a tight smooth coat but those terriers do suffer.Personally I prefer a smooth coat over rough but it has to be thick.For me there is no argument,too tight or whatever its called might look good in a summer show but i see it as a disability,worse than the linty coat on the bitch in the pic.But if plummers are supposed to have these smooth coats thats fine by me,i know thats what Brian wanted so fair enough.I cant see many of them having to walk all-day on wet moors,fells or dales so its maybe not an issue for plummer owners.

 

Incidentally,i nearly didnt keep the pup i have here as it had a smoother coat than its siblings.I was/am worried it will be affected by cold and wet.