Plummer terriers

[goldfinch2007 2,331]

glen you do narth rymthe on but fairplay, you could go on mastermind,YOUR CHOSEN SUBJECT PLUMMER TERRIERS.

[stormyboy 1,352]

Hector did a good few seasons of hunt service and was very good at his job.

 

A journalist?

[wirral countryman 2,110]

glen,I certainly don't wear rose coloured spectacles as regards DBP but I do like the breed HE started and can only say as I find,there were certainly more working plummer's about in the 's as I remember it,they were worked harder on all quarry by more ordinary people,all these plummer clubs and societies just seemed to of weakened them as a working dog,whether this is because of political infighting or maybe brian is not there anymore to shape the direction in which you should all be heading I really don't know,but you collectively have separated this breed from ordinary ownership by working class lads by overpricing pups,is it all about money and KC registration?surely its working qualities deserve better,if people just wish to show thats up to them but I do feel every effort should be made to get more pups into working homes,if the breed has advanced as much as you would have us believe Glen why not fully test your stock in the way Brian did with huntsmen,these people are in the thick of it daily and are a true test for these new superior dogs,at some point this stock has to be fully tested just to see if your genetic knowledge has produced the dog you say,you've talked the talk about the quality of these little dogs why not walk the walk and test them properly,if their found wanting then what?are you scared they may not be up to it?there's no use having a dog from a working breed that just wins shows and looks good its got to have some working background as well,I realise that would mean a change in direction to your present goal but a worthwhile one,remember Brian tried to breed the best looking working dogs from different breeds many times before he found his direction,he travelled about this country sourcing what he considered good stock from known working terriermen and imho this is where you differ from him,he wanted a working dog that would eventually gain KC recognition,where as you want a KC showdog that might work,not quite the same thing,wirralman

[Cleanspade 3,322]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

 

and like most good reads. glen wont let the truth get in the way of a good story

 

"truth".. ..im still waiting for the little dog above to be photod next to a tape measure...that you claim is 12.5 inchs ... you galantly seem to be sticking piccys of other peeps dogs up or are have you suddenly bought a few in ( i think not) a little advise dont belive all the owners tell you about there dogs..spady :sick: ..but then youve only been in the breed a few months ..experince is telling here now ..those that know what there talking about haveing a decent converstion and the rest that jump in with jibes!.. ..LOL

 

you wont be getting a pic. she is twelve inch. a mans word is good enough where i come from. my oldest plummer is nearly four my next is three years, and my youngest is coming two. i owned a plummer in the early ninties and have bred a litter from wizard and line bred the resulting pups you will know the time i have been working terriers if you know your stuff pures crossbreds and oc. along with russells and coloured terriers. ive judged a few shows and international championships and reared entered and done well with KC. terriers. winning well at there shows with workin dogs. what year was wizard. or coed ban wizard. at gadgirth born.? ive enough experience to stick my ten peneth in. allthough you wont agree.

 

 

so whats your guess on her size

 

 

Like i said your wrong that dog aint 12 inchs and you have failed to prove im wrong. As for being an imnternational judge you need a tape measure next time. know wonder the kc has a bad name about altering dogs confromation if judges can't even judge height!

 

Wizard lol have that dogs pedigree somewhere...maybe the wrong one tho as this WIZARD was a q x warlock and that pedigree is riddled with JRs and a dose of supposedly pitbull Making it a mongrol. Hardely a plummer terrier eh!

 

Q / warlock. your right. he was owned by helen jones then and was bred by plummer so he was a plummer terrier. as for the pitbull i dont know. but the ones we bred where only ten to eleven inches. and where to hard for there size, the international was meant to read national the bitch is twelve inch

 

like i said i have a pure. just checked the ped. it has two lines to errol forsyths pip. (jack russell... ainsley newtons tri colour...not sure about that one ?. and hector. was he not a patt cross. pta. mongrel. :kiss:

 

We call the terriers "Plummer" now as we consider them a "breed" Brian tho a like able rogue had a wish to call his working terriers "plummer" one day (see the vids) back then tho as you have just pionted out they were not a breed .And as you "dont know "..and i will enlighten you..read on

 

Helens Wizard being at least an f2 hardley a breed as it was sired by warlock who was half JR and apparently out of a bull cross.

 

His dam "Q" went to "m jones" was a gradaughter of lewis's micky so wizard was "not all that " and looking at "willard" his son id say was more variable than a tube of smarties!

 

 

A purebred (must be either very old or somebreeder needs to play catch up)with two lines to a JR ( PIP) and Hector f2 fell terrier plus the "newton mongrol" ..as if it ain't the definition must be wrong for mongrol as this dog has fells and russells in the second gene. These dogs were immediate pedigrees in the 1980s not now!

 

its a pta regd terrier 3 years old. and the terriers are at the tail end of a five generation ped.

 

wizard was wiht helen jones. not muriel and was in his dotage. he was used over a few russells and produced some decent workers. and most being a good sort to look at.

 

t

[The Fox hunter 0]

Thought this may be of interest to some of you.

[The Fox hunter 0]

Thought this may be of interest to some of you. And this one.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

THEM BEAUFORT HOUNDS IN YOUR AVATAR

[The Fox hunter 0]

THEM BEAUFORT HOUNDS IN YOUR AVATAR

Not sure possibly could be ?

[bedlam 0]

glen,I certainly don't wear rose coloured spectacles as regards DBP but I do like the breed HE started and can only say as I find,there were certainly more working plummer's about in the 's as I remember it,they were worked harder on all quarry by more ordinary people,all these plummer clubs and societies just seemed to of weakened them as a working dog,whether this is because of political infighting or maybe brian is not there anymore to shape the direction in which you should all be heading I really don't know,but you collectively have separated this breed from ordinary ownership by working class lads by overpricing pups,is it all about money and KC registration?surely its working qualities deserve better,if people just wish to show thats up to them but I do feel every effort should be made to get more pups into working homes,if the breed has advanced as much as you would have us believe Glen why not fully test your stock in the way Brian did with huntsmen,these people are in the thick of it daily and are a true test for these new superior dogs,at some point this stock has to be fully tested just to see if your genetic knowledge has produced the dog you say,you've talked the talk about the quality of these little dogs why not walk the walk and test them properly,if their found wanting then what?are you scared they may not be up to it?there's no use having a dog from a working breed that just wins shows and looks good its got to have some working background as well,I realise that would mean a change in direction to your present goal but a worthwhile one,remember Brian tried to breed the best looking working dogs from different breeds many times before he found his direction,he travelled about this country sourcing what he considered good stock from known working terriermen and imho this is where you differ from him,he wanted a working dog that would eventually gain KC recognition,where as you want a KC showdog that might work,not quite the same thing,wirralman

 

I just wonder how many people actualy work there terriers from the various forums that are alive and kicking ???

[wirral countryman 2,110]

bedlam,I can only speak for myself in this post,I have a bedlam bred dog thats 12"tts and weighs 12lb and 12" in the back,he has worked steadily to ground on fox,he can hold in the cover,catches a lot of rabbits above ground in the cover,but has only killed about -90 rats on the farms I hunt,I kill most rats with the air rifle and don't really see it as terrierwork,poison tends to be the most efficient rat killer imho,to answer your question it seems not many people that own this terrier work them to ground in any shape or form due to the way owner's are selected,non-working homes seem to be the norm so as not to embarrass the breeder,good dogs need digging to at times and the average plummer owner just wouldn't know what to do when this happened,atb,wirralman

[Cleanspade 3,322]

i might have missed something along the way. but all this talk of type and breeding for type/comformation has had me thinking. the kennel club terriers ive seen havnt been like pea's in a pod. some of them have been bred for hundreds of years and still there is a big variation in type. there are still faults and flaws there is noticable differences with different lines. some prefixes can be spotted and recognised before you know there names. why all the fuss. it seems as if its a race to rush this breed pushing it towards the holy grail. KC REG. most folk like this breed becouse they like the type. and will breed for type. even working lads will look at type. even if they do so as a secondary thought. i would have thought the breed would get there through natural selection with the owners being given credit to breed sensibly. as is the case in all breeds. in my opinion the biggest drawback to the plummer cant be seen and will often develope slowly. and thats temprement. a lot of plummers(not all) have a gassy nature. and this makes them difficult to kennel. and most working lads wont put up with fighters a few i have spoke to that tried plummers gave them a reasonable write up for ability but couldnt cope with their quarrelsome and hyper nature. anoth complaint was they can be noisy to kennel anyone got any thoughts on this.

 

and as an aside.

 

what is the plan for this breed for the future. i here kc registration constantly but its generally from the same few names. has this breed got a future as a worker and if so what should be bred for. as it isnt in my opinion an out and out earthdog. more a versitile pest control terrier. how do you place your pups. do you look for digging lads or do you look for lads that do a veriety of dogwork.

 

what age do you think these terriers mature and are ready to enter. there seems to be no end of expert opinion on this breed re showing and breeding but not a lot of input on the working side.

[stormyboy 1,352]

Hats off to you CS. One of the best posts ive read on the plummer.

[wirral countryman 2,110]

i might have missed something along the way. but all this talk of type and breeding for type/comformation has had me thinking. the kennel club terriers ive seen havnt been like pea's in a pod. some of them have been bred for hundreds of years and still there is a big variation in type. there are still faults and flaws there is noticable differences with different lines. some prefixes can be spotted and recognised before you know there names. why all the fuss. it seems as if its a race to rush this breed pushing it towards the holy grail. KC REG. most folk like this breed becouse they like the type. and will breed for type. even working lads will look at type. even if they do so as a secondary thought. i would have thought the breed would get there through natural selection with the owners being given credit to breed sensibly. as is the case in all breeds. in my opinion the biggest drawback to the plummer cant be seen and will often develope slowly. and thats temprement. a lot of plummers(not all) have a gassy nature. and this makes them difficult to kennel. and most working lads wont put up with fighters a few i have spoke to that tried plummers gave them a reasonable write up for ability but couldnt cope with their quarrelsome and hyper nature. anoth complaint was they can be noisy to kennel anyone got any thoughts on this.

 

and as an aside.

 

what is the plan for this breed for the future. i here kc registration constantly but its generally from the same few names. has this breed got a future as a worker and if so what should be bred for. as it isnt in my opinion an out and out earthdog. more a versitile pest control terrier. how do you place your pups. do you look for digging lads or do you look for lads that do a veriety of dogwork.

 

what age do you think these terriers mature and are ready to enter. there seems to be no end of expert opinion on this breed re showing and breeding but not a lot of input on the working side.

WELL SAID,I fully agree with you,its certainly more capable than some think,atb,wirralman

[Toka 10]

i think the kc want different types in a breed to show that there is a wide gene pool...that said it is the health side they want improving [more so after the past couple of years fiasco with certain breeds and the bad pr] the relatively larger numbers of other breeds out there means although there will be issues with health, it should be a small percentage of dogs. the problem with the pt is that it is still a relatively 'small' breed and the same number of dogs with faults means a bigger percentage of problems, especially when groups arent talking.

 

gotta say from what i have found out imo the way forward is not just breeding worker to worker as per old school, but worker to worker [with pedigrees], that way health problems can be traced and identified, or at least it should be easier to trace things......but that all depends on the honesty of those breeding the dogs, and from my own experience there seem to be a lot of people [for such a small breed] that at one point or another have been 'less than honest' about their breedings.

 

this seems to be one of the main reasons for division.

 

...some hark back to issues with dbp that have coloured or exasabated the problems as people who hated him for his 'ways' now hate his breed just as an extension rather than giving them a chance...as WC has mentioned, and as i have found out there a a fair few working to ground but they keep themselves to themselves not getting involved in the politics etc. and people bring up these personal, or similar personal differences as can be seen on any pt post.

 

...most of the current issues seem to stem from people breeding dogs and not being truthful about the outcomes or not telling the truth about dogs used etc...then being found out and bad feeling stems from there...

there seem to be a lot of people out there who profess to only be in it for the working of the breed [rats or earth] and are more than happy to cross the pt with other breeds, fell,jr etc and then try to claim that the offspring are all pt's when they want a pedigree and the ability to show them in the summer months...from what i have found out in the short time i have been around..imho.

 

the 2 reasons for KC i can see is that 1. it will be down to them to police any issues regarding breeding/pedigrees and so should stop the 'internal' bickering/problems,nd 2. it was dbp's wish that it gets kc recognition, which seems reasonable.

the reality of the kc issues isnt really down to solely them but more to do with breed clubs not breeding to a standard for the good of the dogs..and the easy solution is/was to blame the kc, but the breed clubs were more to blame. i cant see things getting a lot clearer now with the breed and the longer it goes without recognition the more damage may be done and hence the less chance they will eventually accept them in. as has been mentioned some will jump on the 'kc price hike deal', but there isnt any reason why any working breeder should do that if that isnt truly what they are in it for!

 

i'm not sure that this breed will ever be an out and out earth dog as CS has pointed out, rather an all round pest control breed. that said there isnt any reason why it shouldn't if someone is careful about breeding but that will be a long way off imo as there are just too few 'known about' dogs out there.

 

my own pt self entered at 7 months...a shock at the time as i wasnt aware of the earth being there! thankfully nothing was at home but there was obvious sign that it had been used. since then he hasnt entered again, because i have been more cautious and he has been happy that it has not been used and if nothing is there he will normally ignore it. at 20 months now i think he is well and truly ready, he has matured and is at the stage where he could do with a fresh challenge [as well as me], that said not many of my permissions have earths on them so it is hit and miss. i will keep chipping away and am sure i will drop onto something but at 20 months i'm still not rushing in!

 

as i have said all the above is in my opinion and has been gleaned from people within all the differing clubs etc and individuals from within the pt world as well as some from outside...

 

yup good post CS!!

 

gotta say though WC...from my own dealings with the breed most of those who have contacted me about the breed in the past year have all been from working backgrounds/or wanting a worker - either rats/pest/bushing or fox. i have helped in the rehoming of a couple from 'pet' homes, and they were rehomed due to behavioural problems, mainly due to lack of stimulus/work. once rehomed, certainly one of them seems to be working very well [in ireland] to ground...[although my info is a bit out of date on that]. almost all the 'new' owners i have met certainly through the epts side have been working their dogs...and i gotta say that glenn is very careful, imho, about putting to working homes. i cant talk about others i have heard about though!!??

 

atb

[Kate28 22]

good post cs