Plummer terriers

[Kate28 22]

"the bull blood has made no difference workwise whatso ever"

 

Surely to be unbiased and to be able to judge this you would have to worked pre bull blooded stuff. I don't recall you back then owning or working them at all..never mind breeding them.

 

Like i said experience of these dogs before and after are limited to ..nobody!

 

Controversially "they are all plumemrs etc etc now " move etc etc . Will the KC think so we will see.

 

Glen with due respect,iv owned and still do own pure and out cross so i feel im more than able to give an opinion on work,or are you saying that the "pures" of today are compleatly different to back then?

If its working on top get a copy of the BORN TO RAT DVD you will see plenty of outcross that are more than capable,and none of them are killing each other or thier owners.

I think the bull has done it job its gone in,and breeding very level,out of 4 pups in shinys litter not one over 12.5 dog or bitch, yes that maybe down to the pure,but it is not un common now Glen

 

PS im not bothered in the kc one way or the other..happy being a nobody

Edited July 13, 2010 by Kate28

[EPTR 4]

"the bull blood has made no difference workwise whatso ever"

 

Surely to be unbiased and to be able to judge this you would have to worked pre bull blooded stuff. I don't recall you back then owning or working them at all..never mind breeding them.

 

Like i said experience of these dogs before and after are limited to ..nobody!

 

Controversially "they are all plumemrs etc etc now " move etc etc . Will the KC think so we will see.

 

Glen with due respect,iv owned and still do own pure and out cross so i feel im more than able to give an opinion on work,or are you saying that the "pures" of today are compleatly different to back then?

If its working on top get a copy of the BORN TO RAT DVD you will see plenty of outcross that are more than capable,and none of them are killing each other or thier owners.

I think the bull has done it job its gone in,and breeding very level,out of 4 pups in shinys litter not one over 12.5 dog or bitch, yes that maybe down to the pure,but it is not un common now Glen

 

PS im not bothered in the kc one way or the other..happy being a nobody

 

Owning both im sure will give you an insite (more than me as i own only pures).But i was really talking of all round work and of course earth work,which belive it or not i have seen enough of even though now i dont.

 

Height wise ..is only part of the picture.

 

You think the bull had done its job but offer nothing to proove this except a remark about height and level litter which we had anyway ? height wasnt mentioned in the "wish list" ..id prefer some data on genetic faults being cured and heads being improved and hindquarters being improved. I do now there were cripples which suggested that one part of the plan failed. And have seen at mashs show enoroumous bull blooded dogs and also at the same show new blooded dogs with gentic faults that wre allready in the breed.

 

Pedigrees would help as it sounds to me like these level litters are very much pureberd...how many times does halyely appear in the pedigree?

 

Are there any studs out there linebred to the new blood?

[FLATCAP 6]

34 PAGES OF SHITE

[Tesco 28]

34 PAGES OF SHITE

 

X2

[stainlee 27]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

[stormyboy 1,352]

THE PUREBERD CAN STAND ALONE AND HAVE PROVEN TO SINCE QUITE CONSDIERBALY WELL HERE THEY HAVE. Translation?

 

 

The adtition of outcross blood to the eptr regiter was a polictal move only. If, as you have claimed, there were enough "pures" to perpetuate and improve on,why allow "new blood" onto your register at all? What "political" motive? It seems hypocritical to pour scorn on them yet allow them to be registered IMO.

 

I believe Brian was referring to the f1/f2 re; doubling. Obviously line breeding is required to fix desired traits, but this can be achieved relatively quickly with dogs of similar type eg. terriers rather than completely different types,say collie x terrier.

Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygosity regardless of the percentage of geniality.

 

 

Politics..we accepted the new blood as i believed at the time we had no choice if we were going to get the breed registered every move made by any club would be blocked by norma and the so called club ..PTCGB..However subsequently things have moved on and we are now in a different spot.

 

The Kc cant forever listen to individuals and unstructured minorities over the majority's.

 

Breeding wise linebreeding fixing traits (most common stratergy of breeders of livestock) ,,etc yes but . you have completly lost me with..

 

"Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygousity regardless of the percentage of geniality...NEVER HEARD THIS PHRASE BEFORE "percenrtage of geniality "IN GENETCIS CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN ME.

 

Surely the amount, the % of "common kin blood " and the ( coe of inbreedimg) "F" value reduces heterozygosity and increase homozygosity..well it does in all my books so far!

 

 

Wiki gives us this..

 

"The probability that two alleles at a given locus are identical by descent. ie The extent to which an individual is more likely to be homozygous rather than heterozygous because of related parents "

 

"Heritability can be made larger by diversifying the genetic background, e.g., by using only very outbred individuals which increases the Variance"

 

 

Withot going into breeding plans..and arguieng what is and isnt the best breedimng plan .. I simply have illustrated to those that have these outcross blooded animals that none of the aims can be claimed to have been reached. IMO.

 

If they had they would have been documented and proven beyond doubt in the ten years they have been about. When the epts application goes to the KC I have no choice but to produce and sourrender my theories on the subject . Having seen many generations of pureberds and have documented their rise and the ailments they possess. Justifying brians last atempt "have his way" will be at the very least taxing...without the fruits of his ideas and not his labours, for all to be seen.

 

Good informative posts there EPTR, I think that stormyboy (correct me if im wrong SB) was trying to say that sometimes breedings dont pan out according to the percentages,i.e they may throw to an ancestor of the dog that you are trying to duplicate,or by some twist of fate seemingly inherit nothing from a signifigant ancestor and be a replica in all ways of some less signifigant one.A good example would be the greyhound "slaneyside Hare"

who was considered by many (due to type/variety of pups,their temperments etc.) to be the reincarnation of his great ,great grandfather "Monalee champion" ,who also occurred once a generation further back on his damline (9.4% altogether)>hardly inbred to him.

My own outcross bitch jazz (12.5% bull via nine) seemingly brought nothing from her bull ancestor appearance wise yet threw a"purebred " plummer daughter nearly twice her size.The mating i did twixt her and the 55lb pitbull revealed just how hetrozygous she was(carrying rednosed red,chocolate,tricolour,brindle,classic plummer markings ) .The mating between her plummer marked half sibling offspring produced all plummer marked pups (5).

I didnt get papers with her when i got her-hopefully i might bump into her breeder at a game fair over the summer and find out the rest of her breeding(shes R.I.P now),as a worker, ive seen harder ,more punishing dogs of various breeds(owned a few) but nothing ever sent the shivers up and down my spine like watching her work.Ill try and get a picture that i could post(any would be on my ex fiancees digital camera>so possibly not the easiest thing for m,e to aquire.)

A.t.b john

 

 

Spot on John.

[gonetoearth 5,144]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

[/quote LORD THE PRICE OF DARKNESS MANDELSON OWNS A PLUMMER

[Cleanspade 3,322]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

 

and like most good reads. glen wont let the truth get in the way of a good story

[EPTR 4]

THE PUREBERD CAN STAND ALONE AND HAVE PROVEN TO SINCE QUITE CONSDIERBALY WELL HERE THEY HAVE. Translation?

 

 

The adtition of outcross blood to the eptr regiter was a polictal move only. If, as you have claimed, there were enough "pures" to perpetuate and improve on,why allow "new blood" onto your register at all? What "political" motive? It seems hypocritical to pour scorn on them yet allow them to be registered IMO.

 

I believe Brian was referring to the f1/f2 re; doubling. Obviously line breeding is required to fix desired traits, but this can be achieved relatively quickly with dogs of similar type eg. terriers rather than completely different types,say collie x terrier.

Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygosity regardless of the percentage of geniality.

 

 

Politics..we accepted the new blood as i believed at the time we had no choice if we were going to get the breed registered every move made by any club would be blocked by norma and the so called club ..PTCGB..However subsequently things have moved on and we are now in a different spot.

 

The Kc cant forever listen to individuals and unstructured minorities over the majority's.

 

Breeding wise linebreeding fixing traits (most common stratergy of breeders of livestock) ,,etc yes but . you have completly lost me with..

 

"Talk of percentages is all very well to a point, but certain individuals may display homozygousity regardless of the percentage of geniality...NEVER HEARD THIS PHRASE BEFORE "percenrtage of geniality "IN GENETCIS CAN YOU ENLIGHTEN ME.

 

Surely the amount, the % of "common kin blood " and the ( coe of inbreedimg) "F" value reduces heterozygosity and increase homozygosity..well it does in all my books so far!

 

 

Wiki gives us this..

 

"The probability that two alleles at a given locus are identical by descent. ie The extent to which an individual is more likely to be homozygous rather than heterozygous because of related parents "

 

"Heritability can be made larger by diversifying the genetic background, e.g., by using only very outbred individuals which increases the Variance"

 

 

Withot going into breeding plans..and arguieng what is and isnt the best breedimng plan .. I simply have illustrated to those that have these outcross blooded animals that none of the aims can be claimed to have been reached. IMO.

 

If they had they would have been documented and proven beyond doubt in the ten years they have been about. When the epts application goes to the KC I have no choice but to produce and sourrender my theories on the subject . Having seen many generations of pureberds and have documented their rise and the ailments they possess. Justifying brians last atempt "have his way" will be at the very least taxing...without the fruits of his ideas and not his labours, for all to be seen.

 

Good informative posts there EPTR, I think that stormyboy (correct me if im wrong SB) was trying to say that sometimes breedings dont pan out according to the percentages,i.e they may throw to an ancestor of the dog that you are trying to duplicate,or by some twist of fate seemingly inherit nothing from a signifigant ancestor and be a replica in all ways of some less signifigant one.A good example would be the greyhound "slaneyside Hare"

who was considered by many (due to type/variety of pups,their temperments etc.) to be the reincarnation of his great ,great grandfather "Monalee champion" ,who also occurred once a generation further back on his damline (9.4% altogether)>hardly inbred to him.

My own outcross bitch jazz (12.5% bull via nine) seemingly brought nothing from her bull ancestor appearance wise yet threw a"purebred " plummer daughter nearly twice her size.The mating i did twixt her and the 55lb pitbull revealed just how hetrozygous she was(carrying rednosed red,chocolate,tricolour,brindle,classic plummer markings ) .The mating between her plummer marked half sibling offspring produced all plummer marked pups (5).

I didnt get papers with her when i got her-hopefully i might bump into her breeder at a game fair over the summer and find out the rest of her breeding(shes R.I.P now),as a worker, ive seen harder ,more punishing dogs of various breeds(owned a few) but nothing ever sent the shivers up and down my spine like watching her work.Ill try and get a picture that i could post(any would be on my ex fiancees digital camera>so possibly not the easiest thing for m,e to aquire.)

A.t.b john

 

See where your coming from but its rare now in my kennels it does occur when i bring outside lines in(see below) .. but the good thing is that Plummers are traceable,well many are .

 

I did bring in a smart looking dog once over, as he was lineberd to a origanl line i have .But he produced terrible long noses and on researching I found and pin pionted the common ancestor that had the same affliction.

 

The trait was in both grandparents but were unrelated animals. This is probably the only time I can say that I was blown over and didnt predict what i expected...then i had'nt seen the dogs dam in the flesh ..if i had then i would have remembered this before the matings.

 

But my own bred dogs my own line are highly predictable, and i use the percentage values of certain terriers to predict my outcomes. Infact i have just bred a litter . The sire is heavily inbred at 34% and heavily bred to a bitch I bred ten years ago from my original stock from firebird and viper (at 50% the result of half brother and sister mating)

 

 

I expected to get black muzzles and some good round skulls with good sharp stops which hark back to one of my first black face round skulled dog luca (1996) at 12.5% and have manged to decrease the inbreeding to just 17%. I have to say they are only 2 weeks old friday but at present are exactly what i wanted, and expected.

 

The only down side of this litter is the dam who is only 25% my breeding and from a line of not so good conformation in fact she is the best of a bad bunch . But i liked her as pup and manged to get her as a three year old she has bred some good stuff for me and have tested her on different stud dogs so far she has not produced any cripples that her sires line is known for.

 

It's simply a case of knowing the dominance recessive factor in the line you breed, and increasing the % of the blood you want. However the more the genes are variable as in the f2' bull bred stuff as you rightly have pointed out the matings of such will produce many many different types.

 

This litter will have genetic variance even though they are typey to look at , so the bitch i keep will be linebred back to traits i want and to a dog that is my own breeding..this should then avoid the variance that the other bitch who are sold maywell produce if the owners dont listen and head straight to the common studs about or the latest show winner.

 

If variables occur regularly in plummer kennels then the inbreeding coe, (F) is to low. This breed had a big genepool before the second intro of bull blood and one can produce anything from a foxterrier looker to a bully dog i know because i breed both regularly...to keep the genepool wide.

Edited July 14, 2010 by EPTR

[EPTR 4]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

 

and like most good reads. glen wont let the truth get in the way of a good story

 

"truth".. ..im still waiting for the little dog above to be photod next to a tape measure...that you claim is 12.5 inchs ... you galantly seem to be sticking piccys of other peeps dogs up or are have you suddenly bought a few in ( i think not) a little advise dont belive all the owners tell you about there dogs..spady :sick: ..but then youve only been in the breed a few months ..experince is telling here now ..those that know what there talking about haveing a decent converstion and the rest that jump in with jibes!.. ..LOL

[DannyMc 143]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

pmsl,cracker. .

[Cleanspade 3,322]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

 

and like most good reads. glen wont let the truth get in the way of a good story

 

"truth".. ..im still waiting for the little dog above to be photod next to a tape measure...that you claim is 12.5 inchs ... you galantly seem to be sticking piccys of other peeps dogs up or are have you suddenly bought a few in ( i think not) a little advise dont belive all the owners tell you about there dogs..spady :sick: ..but then youve only been in the breed a few months ..experince is telling here now ..those that know what there talking about haveing a decent converstion and the rest that jump in with jibes!.. ..LOL

 

you wont be getting a pic. she is twelve inch. a mans word is good enough where i come from. my oldest plummer is nearly four my next is three years, and my youngest is coming two. i owned a plummer in the early ninties and have bred a litter from wizard and line bred the resulting pups you will know the time i have been working terriers if you know your stuff pures crossbreds and oc. along with russells and coloured terriers. ive judged a few shows and international championships and reared entered and done well with KC. terriers. winning well at there shows with workin dogs. what year was wizard. or coed ban wizard. at gadgirth born.? ive enough experience to stick my ten peneth in. allthough you wont agree.

 

 

so whats your guess on her size

[goldfinch2007 2,332]

what happened to anyone work plummers put it to bed lads

[OldNog 432]

soooooooooooooooo..............

 

 

 

 

 

do they work????

[wirral countryman 2,110]

If it reaches 50 pages I,m going to turn it into a novel, it,s got everything......the evil agent working for the sinister organisation,{Glen and the KC],the heroes standing up for the ordinary people,[WCM Fireman] the love interest [Glen and Glen] the victim [ Thurso jack whos still waiting for an answer] it could be next years best seller.

 

 

stainlee,thats a cracker,good to see you you got the roles right,I think it will get to 50 pages if the evil agent has anything to do with it boring everyone with his genetics and percentages,I'll bet he'd be great to sit next to at a party,he'd have you suicidal in minutes telling everyone how great he is,genetics are not as straightforward as he would have us all believe,every now and then we all get surprised by resulting litter's from a mating,I think if you took your dog and measured it in front of him,let him see it work to ground or above,he would still refuse to believe what he has seen with his own eye's,if he was as good at spelling as mouthing off like an empty can it wouldn't be so bad,but its a hard slog trying to re-arrange such long boring tyrades put together by a buffoon,nice one stainlee,wirralman