Collie greyhound

[OldPhil 5,799]

Interesting to hear a bit of 'Smithfield banter'....

 

Edited December 30, 2024 by OldPhil

[comanche 3,027]

9 hours ago, mC HULL said:

looks like a fat yorkie  lol 

I think if Yorkies actually  grew to that size l would be quite scared!

[comanche 3,027]

8 hours ago, shaaark said:

 

Can't do all that link caper, but just had a Google and came up with these, lads.

Don't know if you can get the link or whatever to them.

 

Here is a picture of a "Norfolk shepherd with his Smithfield" from the 1920s .

I looked up wire haired "Smithfield" ACDs . They  look exactly as  you would  expect  an ACD crossed  with one of the  old hairy breeds to look!

[Aussie Whip 4,105]

11 hours ago, dai dogs said:

Iv been thinking of using a ACD  stud on one of my Greyhound bitches ( first blood yesterday) iv got a choice of many good working border collie studs but know little about ACD only what iv seen on internet anyone compare the two from experience 

The first dog I went ferreting with as a kid was an old bloke's ACD cross grey. She was almost indestructible and loyal but I thought she lacked a bit in speed so I went to the whippet type lurchers. She was good ferreting though and a good looking dog with drop ears and a white coat flecked with red spots.

[tatsblisters 9,859]

8 hours ago, comanche said:

Here is a picture of a "Norfolk shepherd with his Smithfield" from the 1920s .

I looked up wire haired "Smithfield" ACDs . They  look exactly as  you would  expect  an ACD crossed  with one of the  old hairy breeds to look!

That pic reminds me of the Puli and I often used to wonder about the Briard and if it was ever a part of the drovers dogs hundreds of years ago. 

[comanche 3,027]

3 hours ago, tatsblisters said:

That pic reminds me of the Puli and I often used to wonder about the Briard and if it was ever a part of the drovers dogs hundreds of years ago. 

Could be ; looking at all the hairy  European herding dogs it's  likely that they share the same ancestry .But close ancestory or not , being as they were developed with the same practical intentions  it's  not surprising the are a bit looky-likey. 

As sheep farming spread into Europe from the East it makes sense to think that herding dogs did the same   , adapting to conditions and picking up  fancy foreign ways as they went .

Thinking about it,   herding dogs especially those owned by nomadic tribes covered huge distances on  foot, were carried in  ships' cargoes of sheep to foreign ports  and were  no doubt traded at the same distant markets as the livestock they herded.

Surely no other type of dog   had more opportunity to mix ,match and spread its genes over vaste distances . No wonder they all look so similar

 

 

[shaaark 10,825]

5 hours ago, tatsblisters said:

That pic reminds me of the Puli and I often used to wonder about the Briard and if it was ever a part of the drovers dogs hundreds of years ago. 

 

1 hour ago, comanche said:

Could be ; looking at all the hairy  European herding dogs it's  likely that they share the same ancestry .But close ancestory or not , being as they were developed with the same practical intentions  it's  not surprising the are a bit looky-likey. 

As sheep farming spread into Europe from the East it makes sense to think that herding dogs did the same   , adapting to conditions and picking up  fancy foreign ways as they went .

Thinking about it,   herding dogs especially those owned by nomadic tribes covered huge distances on  foot, were carried in  ships' cargoes of sheep to foreign ports  and were  no doubt traded at the same distant markets as the livestock they herded.

Surely no other type of dog   had more opportunity to mix ,match and spread its genes over vaste distances . No wonder they all look so similar

 

 

I thought similar about the lagotto romagnolo and bedlingtons, re history of people travelling  etc, both breeds having a great nose, similar coats, good in water etc.

Bearing in mind, like most breeds, they would've a looked a little different to what they are now, but probably not too different?

[OldPhil 5,799]

On 30/12/2024 at 21:40, comanche said:

Here is a picture of a "Norfolk shepherd with his Smithfield" from the 1920s .

I looked up wire haired "Smithfield" ACDs . They  look exactly as  you would  expect  an ACD crossed  with one of the  old hairy breeds to look!

Hmm,...The problem I have found with the early reference books, is that the information offered, is frequently nothing more than hearsay, and is often woefully inaccurate... Whilst I am no scholar and have received scant formal education,..(which makes me a tad on the thicko side)..I was raised on a sheep and cattle farm,.. and saw many types of herding dogs. Very few were pure bred,. .indeed, amongst the bare -skinned Border Collie/Welsh Collie litters, there was often a Bearded collie throwback kinda critter..

These occasional hairy ones, made me think that the Border and Beardie , are very similar,.it is their style of working and overall usage that is different... With this in mind, I am loath to take as Gospel , the words of folk who might simply be quoting from a previous quote, ad infinitum...I tend to go with a gut feeling and believe my own eyes. For instance,.. I fancy that the excellent photo above,..is not of a Norfolk Shepherd with a Smithfield droving cur, but instead I feel that it is a Sussex Shepherd with his localised Pyecombe Crook and possibly, a very similar style of dog that I used back in the 1980's . 

When I put the animal across my own lamping bitch, Mercedes , I was told by the guys who were working the dog, on the South Downs that it was a Blue Shag...Whatever,..it looked to be some kind of working Bearded Collie to me,.. but,. not quite the same 

The Beardie has been bred to hunt out sheep that are well hidden in the rough, and as such the dogs are generally fairly noisy in their work, whereas this example had a lot of 'eye' and moved stealthily, and in silence...The resulting pups from that union were very different to my previous lurchers....

Anyway, all in the past now...as is the Smithfield 

 

Edited January 2 by OldPhil

[shaaark 10,825]

19 minutes ago, OldPhil said:

Hmm,...The problem I have found with the early reference books, is that the information offered, is frequently nothing more than hearsay, and is often woefully inaccurate... Whilst I am no scholar and have received scant formal education,..(which makes me a tad on the thicko side)..I was raised on a sheep and cattle farm,.. and saw many types of herding dogs. Very few were pure bred,. .indeed, amongst the bare -skinned Border Collie/Welsh Collie litters, there was often a Bearded collie throwback kinda critter..

These occasional hairy ones, made me think that the Border and Beardie , are very similar,.it is their style of working and overall usage that is different... With this in mind, I am loath to take as Gospel , the words of folk who might simply be quoting from a previous quote, ad infinitum...I tend to go with a gut feeling and believe my own eyes. For instance,.. I fancy that the excellent photo above,..is not of a Norfolk Shepherd with a Smithfield droving cur, but instead I feel that it is a Sussex Shepherd with his localised Pyecombe Crook and possibly, a very similar style of dog that I used back in the 1980's . 

When I put the animal across my own lamping bitch, Mercedes , I was told by the guys who were working the dog, on the South Downs that it was a Blue Shag...Whatever,..it looked to be some kind of working Bearded Collie to me,.. but,. not quite the same 

The Beardie has been bred to hunt out sheep that are well hidden in the rough, and as such the dogs are generally fairly noisy in their work, whereas this example had a lot of 'eye' and moved stealthily, and in silence...The resulting pups from that union were very different to my previous lurchers....

Anyway, all in the past now...as is the Smithfield 

Very erudite, again, Phil, and probably spot on. 

[comanche 3,027]

2 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Hmm,...The problem I have found with the early reference books, is that the information offered, is frequently nothing more than hearsay, and is often woefully inaccurate... Whilst I am no scholar and have received scant formal education,..(which makes me a tad on the thicko side)..I was raised on a sheep and cattle farm,.. and saw many types of herding dogs. Very few were pure bred,. .indeed, amongst the bare -skinned Border Collie/Welsh Collie litters, there was often a Bearded collie throwback kinda critter..

These occasional hairy ones, made me think that the Border and Beardie , are very similar,.it is their style of working and overall usage that is different... With this in mind, I am loath to take as Gospel , the words of folk who might simply be quoting from a previous quote, ad infinitum...I tend to go with a gut feeling and believe my own eyes. For instance,.. I fancy that the excellent photo above,..is not of a Norfolk Shepherd with a Smithfield droving cur, but instead I feel that it is a Sussex Shepherd with his localised Pyecombe Crook and possibly, a very similar style of dog that I used back in the 1980's . 

When I put the animal across my own lamping bitch, Mercedes , I was told by the guys who were working the dog, on the South Downs that it was a Blue Shag...Whatever,..it looked to be some kind of working Bearded Collie to me,.. but,. not quite the same 

The Beardie has been bred to hunt out sheep that are well hidden in the rough, and as such the dogs are generally fairly noisy in their work, whereas this example had a lot of 'eye' and moved stealthily, and in silence...The resulting pups from that union were very different to my previous lurchers....

Anyway, all in the past now...as is the Smithfield 

Yes  l noticed the Pycoumbe crook,hmmm. Mind   , they did get copied and sold all over the country. This one was (crudely)made in my back garden.

I agree with you  about the supposed demarcation of  working breeds . A bit like lurcher breeding l bet the old shepherds thought "Cor, that's  a good worker. I'll stick it over my favourite bitch." With racial purity being irrelevant.

Reading the "old books" l get a certain feeling that the writers in an effort to appear thorough in their research (Victorians especially ) had a need to categorise everything neatly. A local variation of a plant ,fish or animal became a new breed or species in the eyes of these " splitters". I guess they had to fill the pages with stuff that made them look like experts . Being academics and of the "right " class the thought that they might  be called- out over inaccuracies would've  been unthinkable to them.

Edited December 31, 2024 by comanche

[OldPhil 5,799]

Yes, dear friend ,..I was possibly being a bit pedantic,..in as much as,. very few antique books (if any) especially on the subject of Poaching,.. have been penned by actual Poachers,...and,.. it stands out a country mile 

With that in mind,.. a lot of the early doggy books that we were all brought up with, are not exactly kosher. Nowadays,. we are more likely to ask 'awkward and possibly embarrassing' questions of the author,. and whilst romanticism is great fun,.. ya cannot beat, stone, cold, cast iron facts..

 

Edited January 2 by OldPhil

[Daniel cain 45,546]

10 hours ago, tatsblisters said:

That pic reminds me of the Puli and I often used to wonder about the Briard and if it was ever a part of the drovers dogs hundreds of years ago. 

I remember My old Nana had a Briard dog called Butch,he died in 88,he was around 18 yrs old ..my old girl will have photos of him somewhere...Ive never seen another one in the flesh since

[Neal 1,869]

6 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Hmm,...The problem I have found with the early reference books, is that the information offered, is frequently nothing more than hearsay, and is often woefully inaccurate... Whilst I am no scholar and have received scant formal education,..(which makes me a tad on the thicko side)..I was raised on a sheep and cattle farm,.. and saw many types of herding dogs. Very few were pure bred,. .indeed, amongst the bare -skinned Border Collie/Welsh Collie litters, there was often a Bearded collie throwback kinda critter..

These occasional hairy ones, made me think that the Border and Beardie , are very similar,.it is their style of working and overall usage that is different... With this in mind, I am loath to take as Gospel , the words of folk who might simply be quoting from a previous quote, ad infinitum...I tend to go with a gut feeling and believe my own eyes. For instance,.. I fancy that the excellent photo above,..is not of a Norfolk Shepherd with a Smithfield droving cur, but instead I feel that it is a Sussex Shepherd with his localised Pyecombe Crook and possibly, a very similar style of dog that I used back in the 1980's . 

When I put the animal across my own lamping bitch, Mercedes , I was told by the guys who were working the dog, on the South Downs that it was a Blue Shag...Whatever,..it looked to be some kind of working Bearded Collie to me,.. but,. not quite the same 

The Beardie has been bred to hunt out sheep that are well hidden in the rough, and as such the dogs are generally fairly noisy in their work, whereas this example had a lot of 'eye' and moved stealthily, and in silence...The resulting pups from that union were very different to my previous lurchers....

Anyway, all in the past now...as is the Smithfield 

I think you're definitely right here. One of the biggest problems with people resurrecting or "improving" breeds is that they feel the need to use breeds which look similar whereas they should be using breeds which work and/or think similarly. 

As a very exaggerated example: if I was looking for a bearded collie, I'd prefer to buy one which worked and acted like a proper beardie but was smooth coated than a beardie coated border collie which worked like it's border collie parents. Does that make sense?

Edited to add: re the inaccuracies of old books, I was reading an article by the late Colonel Hancock recently (I think it was a gundog one, but I'm not sure) and he was saying exactly the same thing i.e. most antiquarian books weren't written by the people who knew much about the subject and were often written by people who were cobbling together odds and ends that they'd heard or read themselves. I've got a couple of old dog books in which the comments are almost identical despite having different authors.

Edited December 31, 2024 by Neal

[low plains drifter 10,589]

7 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Hmm,...The problem I have found with the early reference books, is that the information offered, is frequently nothing more than hearsay, and is often woefully inaccurate... Whilst I am no scholar and have received scant formal education,..(which makes me a tad on the thicko side)..I was raised on a sheep and cattle farm,.. and saw many types of herding dogs. Very few were pure bred,. .indeed, amongst the bare -skinned Border Collie/Welsh Collie litters, there was often a Bearded collie throwback kinda critter..

These occasional hairy ones, made me think that the Border and Beardie , are very similar,.it is their style of working and overall usage that is different... With this in mind, I am loath to take as Gospel , the words of folk who might simply be quoting from a previous quote, ad infinitum...I tend to go with a gut feeling and believe my own eyes. For instance,.. I fancy that the excellent photo above,..is not of a Norfolk Shepherd with a Smithfield droving cur, but instead I feel that it is a Sussex Shepherd with his localised Pyecombe Crook and possibly, a very similar style of dog that I used back in the 1980's . 

When I put the animal across my own lamping bitch, Mercedes , I was told by the guys who were working the dog, on the South Downs that it was a Blue Shag...Whatever,..it looked to be some kind of working Bearded Collie to me,.. but,. not quite the same 

The Beardie has been bred to hunt out sheep that are well hidden in the rough, and as such the dogs are generally fairly noisy in their work, whereas this example had a lot of 'eye' and moved stealthily, and in silence...The resulting pups from that union were very different to my previous lurchers....

Anyway, all in the past now...as is the Smithfield 

You're a raconteur of note

Incidentally this photo reminds me of Hettie, Rummage, Tarn amongst others, they of Ted Walsh fame that is

[OldPhil 5,799]

On 31/12/2024 at 20:01, low plains drifter said:

You're a raconteur of note

Incidentally this photo reminds me of Hettie, Rummage, Tarn amongst others, they of Ted Walsh fame that is

Yes, Ted's dogs were lovely Norfolk Lurcher style animals,. .they definitely had the film star looks, as did many other's that were around at the time. Ted was very coursing orientated,.. he had little use for a Moucher's type of animal My own thinking was a bit different,. .I demanded that my Smithfield 'look-a-likes' acted and behaved, in the manner of their original Herding ancestor....for,. if they were not tractable and easily schooled,.. then for me,.. the entire project would have been a waste of fecking time....

I freely admit,.. I failed abysmally on several occasions, and sometimes, I only really gained, a hairy hare courser,  (of which there were hundreds ) at the time,.. but sometimes, I struck lucky, and produced the style of versatile worker that I was so desperately seeking... 

Facts are,.. a lot of dogs look the part, and to create a style of animal that physically fits the description, is easy,...it's getting the mind set right that is the difficult bit...

We all want different things from our canine pals,...and long may it remain so...

 

Edited January 2 by OldPhil