NEWKID 27,088 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, WILF said: Moyse coaches a “sit & soak” culture, he is all about defending….that’s his speciality at coaching forums, I know, I’ve watched them. You won’t see David Moyes giving attacking coaching classes on coaching networks. The mindset by it’s very definition is a negative culture…..5 days a week that is getting drummed in….practice after practice. Proactive defending takes place further up the pitch, probably the best example is Liverpools “chase” culture….they don’t press, they chase….they actively want the ball, all the time. At some point against teams that really want to go after a game that negative sit & soak mindset is going to bite you in the arse, once teams have a good idea of what you are doing in the same old set patterns you do it in they will target areas and move you around until they kill you…..like arsenal, like Fulham…..they just play through you if they move the ball quick. You will see players hesitant to get out to their man quickly (as per the constant 1v1 Arsenal got Saka into) because they don’t know wether to go or sit in their block…..they are coached to sit in their block and let the other team have the ball…..what do we expect ? To suggest this “style” is the price you pay for moving to a different pitch and playing in minor European competition is absolutely ludicrous to be honest, my pal Gnasher can believe it if he wants to but I can tell him now, with the best will in the world, it’s nonsense. All this “who do you fans think you are” bollocks, we don’t think we are anybody other than what we have always been….we just don’t like looking at shit football because the reality is, you don’t have to. The proof of the pudding to me is that in a squad of 25, 2 players missing completely destroyed the small attacking threat we had……2 ! Good points made there mate, I think West Ham need to decide what they want to be, I don't think the fans will change their views, they love the "small club" mentality, and I get completely why the move from Upton Park was such a wrench...but.. now that's happened there's no going back, so do they want to really compete and go the next step, I'm not a Moyes hater at all, but you are quite right he is not a progressive coach and even if you gave him Arsenals squad he'd still set up with a defensive mind set... football has changed so much since Pep and Klopp got here and managers are following that lead, De Zerbi, Howe, the lad at Wolves (name escapes me), Ange at Spurs etc... they all play on the front foot, look at Wolves against Chelsea the other day...I get Chelsea aren't in a good place, but it still takes bravery to get after teams like that...Spurs have been the same since he arrived, pretty much same squad but set up to go out and win games...its a refreshing approach for sure... Moyes is a safe set of hands, he gets a lot out of his players (normally), but you have got a chance to kick on now and be around the European places regularly, go far in cup competitions plus play dome attractive football, you've got some decent players there... I get your frustration as a football bloke, with a good insight into coaching...I also see why West Ham fans feel loyalty to Moyes, he's won you a cup and really steadied the ship... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 27 minutes ago, NEWKID said: Good points made there mate, I think West Ham need to decide what they want to be, I don't think the fans will change their views, they love the "small club" mentality, and I get completely why the move from Upton Park was such a wrench...but.. now that's happened there's no going back, so do they want to really compete and go the next step, I'm not a Moyes hater at all, but you are quite right he is not a progressive coach and even if you gave him Arsenals squad he'd still set up with a defensive mind set... football has changed so much since Pep and Klopp got here and managers are following that lead, De Zerbi, Howe, the lad at Wolves (name escapes me), Ange at Spurs etc... they all play on the front foot, look at Wolves against Chelsea the other day...I get Chelsea aren't in a good place, but it still takes bravery to get after teams like that...Spurs have been the same since he arrived, pretty much same squad but set up to go out and win games...its a refreshing approach for sure... Moyes is a safe set of hands, he gets a lot out of his players (normally), but you have got a chance to kick on now and be around the European places regularly, go far in cup competitions plus play dome attractive football, you've got some decent players there... I get your frustration as a football bloke, with a good insight into coaching...I also see why West Ham fans feel loyalty to Moyes, he's won you a cup and really steadied the ship... Good post mate. I think the conundrum with Moyes is that his anti football style is reaping financial benefits but it’s f***ing awful to look at…..a hard puzzle in an industry that about entertainment (as the premier league product is now) What do you do as a business owner with the European money in your back pocket, sitting at a point in the table of getting that again if you go out of the current competition and yet watching paying punters walk out in their thousands at half time because your product is absolute shit…..Moyes is blessed in this regard and he knows it. I don’t think he can quiet believe it himself. Edited February 13 by WILF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 45 minutes ago, NEWKID said: Good points made there mate, I think West Ham need to decide what they want to be, I don't think the fans will change their views, they love the "small club" mentality, and I get completely why the move from Upton Park was such a wrench...but.. now that's happened there's no going back, so do they want to really compete and go the next step, I'm not a Moyes hater at all, but you are quite right he is not a progressive coach and even if you gave him Arsenals squad he'd still set up with a defensive mind set... football has changed so much since Pep and Klopp got here and managers are following that lead, De Zerbi, Howe, the lad at Wolves (name escapes me), Ange at Spurs etc... they all play on the front foot, look at Wolves against Chelsea the other day...I get Chelsea aren't in a good place, but it still takes bravery to get after teams like that...Spurs have been the same since he arrived, pretty much same squad but set up to go out and win games...its a refreshing approach for sure... Moyes is a safe set of hands, he gets a lot out of his players (normally), but you have got a chance to kick on now and be around the European places regularly, go far in cup competitions plus play dome attractive football, you've got some decent players there... I get your frustration as a football bloke, with a good insight into coaching...I also see why West Ham fans feel loyalty to Moyes, he's won you a cup and really steadied the ship... I think Chelsea are a great example at the moment of American sport mentality, no thought or process just get the cheque book out. Well, we know, football don’t quiet work like that……it’s why a non league club can knock a 2nd division team out of the FA cup. Football is a lot of factors, the biggest to me has always been mentality and belief…..I have always believed (and it is only an opinion) that if you give a player belief, practice your principals and let him see he can do what he thought he couldn’t and then trust him then they can achieve more than they ever thought they could. I just don’t buy a playing mentality that says “I don’t trust you enough or believe in you enough to be anything more than a punch bag”…..I’ll simply never accept that as anyway to set up a football team, people can show me all the examples they want, I’ll never swallow it. Football to me is more than just numbers and calculations, it has to be. Edited to add: Yes I did go off on a massive tangent there away from Chelsea ! Lol lol Edited February 13 by WILF 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEWKID 27,088 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 46 minutes ago, WILF said: Good post mate. I think the conundrum with Moyes is that his anti football style is reaping benefits but it’s f***ing awful to look at…..a hard puzzle in an industry that about entertainment (as the premier league product is now) What do you do as a business owner with the European money in your back pocket, sitting at a point in the table of getting that again if you go out of the current competition and yet watching paying punters walk out in their thousands at half time because your product is absolute shit…..Moyes is blessed in this regard and he knows it. I don’t think he can quiet believe it himself. The thing is mate those European places are wide open now, you pretty much know City, Liverpool and Arsenal will make up the top 3 and you'd expect Man Utd, Newcastle, Tottenham to be competing for the other 3 (I'm ignoring Aston Villa at the minute, but they certainly look like the future I'd bright).. so it's a real ask for teams like West Ham to secure a place, as you say do you sacrifice "the beautiful game" for someone who's proven he can get into Europe and win some silverware... its stick or twist on a manager who's done nothing wrong, in fact mostly everything right...but plays a style that fans don't like 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEWKID 27,088 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 33 minutes ago, WILF said: I think Chelsea are a great example at the moment of American sport mentality, no thought or process just get the cheque book out. Well, we know, football don’t quiet work like that……it’s why a non league club can knock a 2nd division team out of the FA cup. Football is a lot of factors, the biggest to me has always been mentality and belief…..I have always believed (and it is only an opinion) that if you give a player belief, practice your principals and let him see he can do what he thought he couldn’t and then trust him then they can achieve more than they ever thought they could. I just don’t buy a playing mentality that says “I don’t trust you enough or believe in you enough to be anything more than a punch bag”…..I’ll simply never accept that as anyway to set up a football team, people can show me all the examples they want, I’ll never swallow it. Football to me is more than just numbers and calculations, it has to be. Edited to add: Yes I did go off on a massive tangent there away from Chelsea ! Lol lol Agreed on Chelsea, they've completely lost their way, Poch is a good manager but he can't get it to work either... It's entertainment vs Results... if you cam get both then great but sometimes one thing or the other has to give... but..the likes of De Zerbi plus the scouts at Brighton must be a beacon of how to do it... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, NEWKID said: The thing is mate those European places are wide open now, you pretty much know City, Liverpool and Arsenal will make up the top 3 and you'd expect Man Utd, Newcastle, Tottenham to be competing for the other 3 (I'm ignoring Aston Villa at the minute, but they certainly look like the future I'd bright).. so it's a real ask for teams like West Ham to secure a place, as you say do you sacrifice "the beautiful game" for someone who's proven he can get into Europe and win some silverware... its stick or twist on a manager who's done nothing wrong, in fact mostly everything right...but plays a style that fans don't like It’s where football meets money I suppose mate, do you just play the averages for the sake of a balance sheet ?……I suppose you do.…..shit innit! If we go out of the Europa league Moyes is toast imho. Edited February 13 by WILF Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, NEWKID said: Agreed on Chelsea, they've completely lost their way, Poch is a good manager but he can't get it to work either... It's entertainment vs Results... if you cam get both then great but sometimes one thing or the other has to give... but..the likes of De Zerbi plus the scouts at Brighton must be a beacon of how to do it... I think the Bundesliga is getting it right and we will see more and more coaches and directors of football coming out of there…….there seems to be an understanding of what the game should be and how to go about it. Could be wrong ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blackmag 6,038 Posted February 13 Author Report Share Posted February 13 6 hours ago, WILF said: just don’t buy a playing mentality that says “I don’t trust you enough or believe in you enough to be anything more than a punch bag”…..I’ll simply never accept that as anyway to set up a football team, people can show me all the examples they want, I’ll never swallow it. Football to me is more than just numbers and calculations, it has to be What you describe is a man manager imo klopp is a great example of that he even hugs a sub before he goes on moyse hasn't ever been that type to do that I think he will go when is contract ends in the summer 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chesney 5,435 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 Wilf be happy if Jose Mourinho took over after Moyes lol 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 1 hour ago, chesney said: Wilf be happy if Jose Mourinho took over after Moyes lol I’m fairness to Jose, he changes it up quiet a lot…..historically speaking. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 On 13/02/2024 at 08:32, WILF said: Moyse coaches a “sit & soak” culture, he is all about defending….that’s his speciality at coaching forums, I know, I’ve watched them. You won’t see David Moyes giving attacking coaching classes on coaching networks. The mindset by it’s very definition is a negative culture…..5 days a week that is getting drummed in….practice after practice. Proactive defending takes place further up the pitch, probably the best example is Liverpools “chase” culture….they don’t press, they chase….they actively want the ball, all the time. At some point against teams that really want to go after a game that negative sit & soak mindset is going to bite you in the arse, once teams have a good idea of what you are doing in the same old set patterns you do it in they will target areas and move you around until they kill you…..like arsenal, like Fulham…..they just play through you if they move the ball quick. You will see players hesitant to get out to their man quickly (as per the constant 1v1 Arsenal got Saka into) because they don’t know wether to go or sit in their block…..they are coached to sit in their block and let the other team have the ball…..what do we expect ? An example would be, a player is trying to be a good player, he is trying to execute his coaches instructions (instructions they have worked on all season and the season before) and stay in his shape as part of 2 lines of 4, as you soak and drop those two lines compress to close the space between the lines. If they get him in a wide 1v1 and he gos to close the other team have now pulled a hole, if that 1v1 manages to draw out the player behind as well to double up and make it a 2v1 they have now pulled your block wide open…..quick sharp passing, movement, 3rd man running and movement in the box will then smash through that hole and have your set block at 6s & 7s in the box not knowing what to do…..they are literally dragging you all over the place. To suggest this “style” is the price you pay for moving to a different pitch and playing in minor European competition is absolutely ludicrous to be honest, my pal Gnasher can believe it if he wants to but I can tell him now, with the best will in the world, it’s nonsense. All this “who do you fans think you are” bollocks, we don’t think we are anybody other than what we have always been….we just don’t like looking at shit football because the reality is, you don’t have to. The proof of the pudding to me is that in a squad of 25, 2 players missing completely destroyed the small attacking threat we had……2 ! Yet through all that tactical jargon most of the goals Arsenal scored were from set pieces and defensive f**k ups ! I repeat,if you thought we was going to become a big club AND play nice attacking football then you dont know as much about this club as i thought you did You can try to disguise the bad choice you's all made as much as you like.....the harsh truth is,you got what you wanted but now you want what we already had. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gnasher16 30,025 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 18 hours ago, chesney said: Wilf be happy if Jose Mourinho took over after Moyes lol Thats what cracks me up about you Wilf.....i remember reading post after post from you on here about how Jose is " a winner " and how it doesnt matter what you do or how you do it as long as you win. Yet now West Ham have copped that mentality you hate it and its all about " playing the right way " ......why dont you just admit it,you want an oil sheikh to come in and do a Man City 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 2 minutes ago, gnasher16 said: Yet through all that tactical jargon most of the goals Arsenal scored were from set pieces and defensive f**k ups ! I repeat,if you thought we was going to become a big club AND play nice attacking football then you dont know as much about this club as i thought you did You can try to disguise the bad choice you's all made as much as you like.....the harsh truth is,you got what you wanted but now you want what we already had. I’m not upset we got done in by 6 goals to Arsenal or 5 goals to Fulham mate….I knew these type of things were coming all along, I said it on this thread ages ago…..so I’m not in the least bit pissed off because I understand what’s going to happen when you play such rigid, negative football. But defensive f**k ups ?…..David Moyes is regarded as one of the preeminent defensive coaches in England, these are his players, he has coached them 5 days a week for 2 years at least. This is all they do, but 9 players just decided to have an off day ?……don’t be silly chief, they could play these shapes in their sleep. Anyway, promised I wasn’t going to get drawn into talking about the hammers with you so that’s that mate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
WILF 46,608 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 3 minutes ago, gnasher16 said: Thats what cracks me up about you Wilf.....i remember reading post after post from you on here about how Jose is " a winner " and how it doesnt matter what you do or how you do it as long as you win. Yet now West Ham have copped that mentality you hate it and its all about " playing the right way " ......why dont you just admit it,you want an oil sheikh to come in and do a Man City If you think Mourinho is Moyes pal then I just don’t know what to say. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dutch 267 Posted February 14 Report Share Posted February 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, WILF said: I’m not upset we got done in by 6 goals to Arsenal or 5 goals to Fulham mate….I knew these type of things were coming all along, I said it on this thread ages ago…..so I’m not in the least bit pissed off because I understand what’s going to happen when you play such rigid, negative football. But defensive f**k ups ?…..David Moyes is regarded as one of the preeminent defensive coaches in England, these are his players, he has coached them 5 days a week for 2 years at least. This is all they do, but 9 players just decided to have an off day ?……don’t be silly chief, they could play these shapes in their sleep. Anyway, promised I wasn’t going to get drawn into talking about the hammers with you so that’s that mate. We’ve played Arsenal 3 times this year and beat them twice though mate? We’ve also beat Chelsea, Tottenham, Man Utd, got 4 points of Brighton and a draw with Newcastle. That’s a good return and proof his style can be effective Ignoring the worldie from Rice they were fcuk ups - 2 set plays, penalty etc. Even the best get spanked - in recent years Leicester have put 5 and Everton 4 against Guardiola, Villa put 7 past Klopp’s Liverpool. When you at Moyes reign, he’s done a solid job. i think you have to be careful what you wish for and i don’t see an alternative if we want to be a top half club challenging for Europe Look at Potter and Poch at Chelsea, Hag at United - it’s difficult to implement that attractive style of football when you don’t have top players Edited February 14 by Dutch Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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