Twist rate and nontoxic bullets

[Achilles-13 3]

Hi all

 

as I’m looking at buying my first rifle I’m bumping up against the following : I really like the sauer 100 in 308 with a twist rate of 1:11. I’d prefer to use nontoxic bullets ( since lead might/will get banned anyway… and here where I am, all nontox in 308 are 167 grain and up. I did calculations on bullet stability using bullets of equal length and these came up as unstable…

 

has anybody had any experience with this? Real life experience beats calculations any day… 

 

kind regards

 

A.

 

 

[Deker 3,478]

I don't know the specific answer but it is a potential problem many of us will be facing in the future, as we end up lead free!

Barrels/twists are built with current general ammo selections in mind, and as the lead free alternatives all seem to be lighter, who knows where we will end up!!

Edited December 27, 2022 by Deker

[KimE 487]

I have tryed 180gr copper bullets in my 1/11 Tikka t3 .308w and had great precision. I think 150-167gr are the best weights for .308w and lead free.

[3175darren 1,100]

I looked into it for my 6.5x55 and as yet I have not sorted it, the info I have been told is fast twist and lighter bullet , my normal round is 140 grain , the gun is 1 in 7/1/2 ish , apparently the rounds being longer the only issue , is loading for the magazine ie to fit it , I am going to try 120 grain and 130 , not sure on how they will drop reds, but going to give them a go next season, as for 308 it seems we are both not the same boat try it and see . 

[scarecrow243 24]

non lead do not interest me at all as it is total crap that's why norway over turned their Rule on non toxic it knackers barrels

[3175darren 1,100]

4 minutes ago, scarecrow243 said:

non lead do not interest me at all as it is total crap that's why norway over turned their Rule on non toxic it knackers barrels

Look I agree, I am not happy about using it either , but we are being forced that way, same as we were with DSC1 and 2 , which still are not compulsory on private ground , as regards the barrels , not sure on that as it isn’t normally the lead rubbing up the rifling anyway , it’s the jacket , I have stalked since the mid 80’s and don’t like being forced down a particular path , but as sure as eggs are eggs , we will be with lead, 

[Sausagedog 7,381]

Most 308 rifles will stabilize 200gn traditional bullets. They are quite long but come out of a 308 quite slow!

Is there any recommendations by the bullet or ammunition producers regarding twist?

[scarecrow243 24]

the non toxic rounds are harder than copper jackets witch will effect the rifling   i have an old brno .22lr that is 50 years old and shoots perfect non toxic would soon destroy it  also i have an old winchester model 70 xtr featherweight .243 it also shoots perfect  as i said above Norway was the first country to ban lead shot etc  but they have stopped it as it has been proving to damage barrels   basc did not try and stop this they just turned and said oh yes we will change over in five years  wait until this so called non toxic starts to ricochet all over the play killing some one  it will happen

[Alsone 789]

Copper bullets are suppsoed to be on a par or even superior to lead.

Shotgun ammo, is the big problem. Rifles don't seem to have much of an issue with now with modern copper alloys.

 

[KimE 487]

5 hours ago, Sausagedog said:

Most 308 rifles will stabilize 200gn traditional bullets. They are quite long but come out of a 308 quite slow!

Is there any recommendations by the bullet or ammunition producers regarding twist?

Hornady lists 1/10 for their 190gr CX (long tipped bullet), for their 180gr and less CX they have not cared to put out a number so i guess a factory .308w are fine. Cupper Bear are giving load data for 308w 184gr bullet semi pointed, worked well in my 308w 1/11. Lehigh defense recomends 1/8 for their .308  194gr maximum expansion subsonic bullet,

[Wolfdog91 6,919]

From what I'm seeing loong in Google a 1:11 twist can stabilize up to 200grain bullets in .308. 

A good forum I'd recommend is accurateshooter 

[Sausagedog 7,381]

5 hours ago, KimE said:

Hornady lists 1/10 for their 190gr CX (long tipped bullet), for their 180gr and less CX they have not cared to put out a number so i guess a factory .308w are fine. Cupper Bear are giving load data for 308w 184gr bullet semi pointed, worked well in my 308w 1/11. Lehigh defense recomends 1/8 for their .308  194gr maximum expansion subsonic bullet,

Yes which is why I was surprised it , what ever it was, was saying unstable.

I can understand the faster twist for a heavy long subsonic bullet because of low velocity.

There must be a few lighter options that will stabilize and possibly some stumpy options.

Has every rifle got to be 500yd capable?

[Sausagedog 7,381]

5 hours ago, Wolfdog91 said:

From what I'm seeing loong in Google a 1:11 twist can stabilize up to 200grain bullets in .308. 

A good forum I'd recommend is accurateshooter 

I'm not an accurate shooter.

I'm waiting for notsoaccurateshooter.com

[KimE 487]

Yes as a stumpy bullet Lapua Naturalis are recomended to have a impact speed at least 1600fps a Lapua Naturalis 180gr who starts at 2600fps has what speed to about 450m.

Lapua list they 170gr Naturalis cartridge in .308w for 1/11 twistrate. ( V0 2625fps .354bc1) 1632fps at 450y. 

Never shot at anything at 400m so its plenty of range for me. Most monolitic  bullets are made to expand at 1600 or 1800fps so longer range means a bigger cartridge are needed. The bullets intended for hunting with 300blk subsonic expand at 1000fps.

[Achilles-13 3]

Thanks all for chiming in! I’m going to err on the safe side and go for the (sadly uglier) 1:10 twist rifle… if I had access to more types of bullets/ munition for reloading,… I’d easily take the 1:11 twist sauer ( still might later on because I’m a sucker for pretty things… ) but alas, as a small country with few hunters, shops just don’t stock their shelves the same way they do in larger countries where hunting is (very) prevalent… for example, my local firearms dealer stocks 1 (!!) shotgun shell type in 20gauge… 4 brands of 308 ammo in just about all the same weight and grain. 
Do I need a 400 yard gun? Absolutely not, I don’t think I’d ever see a shot beyond 120 yards in a hunting scenario here…

on the copper ammo and barrels thing : a well made copper round should not decrease barrel life by too much, they machine in these small rings to decrease surface area touching the barrrel and thus reducing pressure as well… as far as the advice I could find on monolithic bullets : use a lighter weight bullet, higher speed and terminal effects seem very good… ( I read some reviews on 135grain barnes bullets used in germany on boar and roe deer and working fine…) the videos on terminal ballistics in mono bullets by vortex were good to see as well.

 

thank you all! 

Edited December 27, 2022 by Achilles-13