Y'all and dogs

[Nicepix 5,650]

8 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

In my experience some of the lads that take breeding the most serious are the same lads that treat their dogs like tools. Performance tools that require proper maintenance, schooling, etc etc. But tools, rather than companions, nonetheless. These lads would cull 100 dogs in the pursuit of one outstanding dog, if necessary. Blood and performance is everything to them.

Dogs mean a bit more to me than that, I haven't that level of single minded commitment. But equally I don't have tears streaming down when it's time to flatten one.

IMO the obsession with blood and heritage supersedes emotion.

I think they are the minority. When you see the dogs on beating lines and tethered to gun pegs up and down the country they don't take it that seriously.

[Jonjon79 13,358]

41 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

Its the same all the time. He asks questions but cannot understand the answers. He is too insular like a lot of his countrymen. How Brits train and work hunting dogs is polar opposite to how the Yanks do it. It is far more personal and involves a relationship with ups and downs. To them a dog is a tool, nothing more.

Come on, get it off your chest - is it because he's black or because he's American?

 

Share it with the group, you'll feel better.......... you're not a copper now, you don't have to hide those feelings anymore 

[Born Hunter 17,763]

5 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

I think they are the minority. When you see the dogs on beating lines and tethered to gun pegs up and down the country they don't take it that seriously.

By far and large yes. But equally that type know f**k all about breeding really, and their interest in blood is superficial, beginning and ending with a bit of paper with some red on it. The lads that take it seriously tend to be kennel huntsmen with hounds, terriermen, greyhound trainers etc. Breeding to these fellas means more than the Kennel Clubs approval.

And even within the shooting world, I know some keepers who are every bit as ruthless with their stock as any KH or terrierman. Spaniels particularly being a pheasant keepers essential tool kit from August to November. Those dogs have a f***ing hard job and need to be fit as f**k and sharp as f**k at their job; off the bike, down the hedge, don't f**k about, sprint back to the bike for the next pen to dog back in and repeat from sunrise to sunset at the time of the year when their handler is the most stressed. Dogs will change hands, go out on loan, whatever is 'right' will be bred (never mind if the KC approve) and what ain't will rapidly be worm food.

[comanche 3,001]

9 hours ago, Wolfdog91 said:

So I like to study outdoor culture and subcultures, find it interesting how eveyone tends to hunt fish trap ect and how they specialize in certain things. Well gotta say you guys in the UK have to have one of the biggest obsessions ( and I truly mean that in the best way possible so please don't get bent outta shape) when it comes to dogs. Noticed when someone posts anything and there's a dog y'all key in on that dog. Asking about the breed, blood line ect.

Dont think I've seen it as engrained in hunting culture with anywhere elese like y'all.  Well there some stuff over here that gets close honunds men over here can be pretty.. perticular...But still not quite to extent of you guys. 

What with that ? Seriously from a historical and cultural perspective? I remember seeing some stuff in the history channel about most kings back in the gap had huge kennels full of different breeds for different purposes. Need to find that documentary again , was really good...... Anyhow anyone able to shed some light on this for me? 

We have or had lots of different local types of dog .  Seemingly every other town ,village or big country estate  kept a strain of working dogs. That might've  been terriers for  ratting , badger hunting or  fox digging. Dogs for fighting ,baiting or racing.  Or maybe a local type of hare,otter or fox hound or harrier. Even before landed gentry developed  gun dogs specific to  their needs, there were older breeds for hawking and hunting boar , wolves and deer . Even huge hounds and war dogs that impressed even the Romans. 

Its a fallacy that only our British upper classes are inbreds. People of more mundane breeding often didn't  travel much. Nor did there dogs. 

Close breeding  in  a parocial environment produced  strains that developed enough  standardised characteristics within specific areas to be considered breeds apart. Many of these breeds were  similar  but for adaptations to local terrain or hunting styles. Pretty much all of em were considered by their owners to be superior to similar dogs bred by the "foreigners" in the next County .

All that's  before farmers' and drovers' dog get a mention. There were lots of regional versions of these too. Though the sometime transient nature of yheir work probably gave them more chance to share their love further  than the average village ratter. 

We had lots of little towns and a really rubbish transport infrastructure so we had lots of dog breeds .

No wonder  us Brits have an inbred affinity with the little sods. 

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by comanche

[Born Hunter 17,763]

Coincidentally, I read a post on my feed the other day that said UKSF had culled/euthanised 1200 dogs (mostly mali's) between 2002 and 2019, so basically throughout the war on terror.

Bare in mind UKSF is like 1000 troops (stiff?) of which a fraction will be MWD handlers (probably mostly within SAS/SBS sub units). And these are top tier assets (tools) that will be treated as such. That's some culling in 17/18 years!

A kennel programme at the top of it's game, with the single minded objective of producing quality.

[WILF 46,811]

Probably the most well know dog produced solely by selective breeding for a desired outcome is the Doberman.

The breed is only around 200 years old and is the product of mixing different mutts from the dog pound to achieve the dog we all know. 

[chartpolski 23,562]

30 minutes ago, WILF said:

Probably the most well know dog produced solely by selective breeding for a desired outcome is the Doberman.

The breed is only around 200 years old and is the product of mixing different mutts from the dog pound to achieve the dog we all know. 

Slightly misleading Wilf.

Otto Doberman owned a dog pound, but didn't haphazardly breed from "mutts".

He selectively bred from certain breeds, including the greyhound, to achieve a type that suited his purpose.

I owned a rather nice one that was born in Holland, from German parents, gifted to me in Saudi and ended its days in the U.K.;

I did have a decent "pound dog " in my kennel from time to time, only thing known about him was that his dam was  pure Greyhound, sire "was of pedigree unknown", but turned out a decent dog;

Cheers.

[WILF 46,811]

7 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

Slightly misleading Wilf.

Otto Doberman owned a dog pound, but didn't haphazardly breed from "mutts".

He selectively bred from certain breeds, including the greyhound, to achieve a type that suited his purpose.

I owned a rather nice one that was born in Holland, from German parents, gifted to me in Saudi and ended its days in the U.K.;

I did have a decent "pound dog " in my kennel from time to time, only thing known about him was that his dam was  pure Greyhound, sire "was of pedigree unknown", but turned out a decent dog;

Cheers.

Like wise I owned 4 nice German/Dutch many years ago, mine were Liver.

[Astanley 11,568]

2 hours ago, comanche said:

I  understood it  . Its a layed back way of getting different opinions and  perspectives    . And it's worked!

Woosh ,(that's an onomatopeic word that denotes that I was being light heartedly pedantic and you didn't get it )if you need any help with this post ,just ask 

[Nicepix 5,650]

56 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

Coincidentally, I read a post on my feed the other day that said UKSF had culled/euthanised 1200 dogs (mostly mali's) between 2002 and 2019, so basically throughout the war on terror.

Bare in mind UKSF is like 1000 troops (stiff?) of which a fraction will be MWD handlers (probably mostly within SAS/SBS sub units). And these are top tier assets (tools) that will be treated as such. That's some culling in 17/18 years!

A kennel programme at the top of it's game, with the single minded objective of producing quality.

After 9/11 there was a lot of recruitment for explo' detection dogs. There was also a massive increase in guard dog breeds being trained up. That had the effect of driving up the price of those breeds throughout Europe and the States. At the start most regional police forces could fill their dog sections with donated dogs. After 9/11 each force needed more dogs, as did the army and prison service and there was a shortage. Initially we were paying £500 for a suitable dog after 2001. By 2003 the price had gone over a grand and there was a serious shortage of decent GSDs down to high demand and the kennel club ruining the breed. 

Because of this many forces and the military turned to Mally's and GSD type dogs sourced from Hungary and other central European countries. Mally's in my opinion are too light for the type of work we used them for. They are sharp, but lack the impact of a GSD weighing up to 10kg more. The central European dogs initially were much better, then other breeders attracted by the high prices brought the quality down. By 2005 Mallys and GSDs were fetching  five grand with a money back if unsuitable guarantee. 

Spaniels, labs and pointers also became scarce. The dogs that families bought and fell out of love with were not enough to supply the higher number of police detection dogs as well as the increasing private security companies for night clubs. That meant the shooting dog breeders could up their prices massively.

Some police forces started to breed their own with mixed, usually poor results. And it was far more expensive than buying in along with creating loads of problems in getting rid of unsuitable pups. Police forces can't morally sell dogs to anybody. They had to do proper checks on the prospective buyers all which takes time and money. 

Sourcing dogs has become a nightmare. So much so many forces have reduced their dog sections. 

Now back to the quoted post. Many of those Mallys euthanised by the UKSF will no doubt be dogs flown into missions and after the mission is over the dog becomes collateral damage. In many cases they can't safely get the dog out. In some cases the dog cannot be redeployed. 

The sheer number of Mallys used by the military has created its own problems. A lot of military dogs come from the same sources as police dogs. Typically the best go to the police for higher prices. The army and RAF dogs are mainly simply guard dogs. But the increasing number of SF dogs being deployed never to return has created another major shortage of good stock. 

[keepdiggin 9,561]

19 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

After 9/11 there was a lot of recruitment for explo' detection dogs. There was also a massive increase in guard dog breeds being trained up. That had the effect of driving up the price of those breeds throughout Europe and the States. At the start most regional police forces could fill their dog sections with donated dogs. After 9/11 each force needed more dogs, as did the army and prison service and there was a shortage. Initially we were paying £500 for a suitable dog after 2001. By 2003 the price had gone over a grand and there was a serious shortage of decent GSDs down to high demand and the kennel club ruining the breed. 

Because of this many forces and the military turned to Mally's and GSD type dogs sourced from Hungary and other central European countries. Mally's in my opinion are too light for the type of work we used them for. They are sharp, but lack the impact of a GSD weighing up to 10kg more. The central European dogs initially were much better, then other breeders attracted by the high prices brought the quality down. By 2005 Mallys and GSDs were fetching  five grand with a money back if unsuitable guarantee. 

Spaniels, labs and pointers also became scarce. The dogs that families bought and fell out of love with were not enough to supply the higher number of police detection dogs as well as the increasing private security companies for night clubs. That meant the shooting dog breeders could up their prices massively.

Some police forces started to breed their own with mixed, usually poor results. And it was far more expensive than buying in along with creating loads of problems in getting rid of unsuitable pups. Police forces can't morally sell dogs to anybody. They had to do proper checks on the prospective buyers all which takes time and money. 

Sourcing dogs has become a nightmare. So much so many forces have reduced their dog sections. 

Now back to the quoted post. Many of those Mallys euthanised by the UKSF will no doubt be dogs flown into missions and after the mission is over the dog becomes collateral damage. In many cases they can't safely get the dog out. In some cases the dog cannot be redeployed. 

The sheer number of Mallys used by the military has created its own problems. A lot of military dogs come from the same sources as police dogs. Typically the best go to the police for higher prices. The army and RAF dogs are mainly simply guard dogs. But the increasing number of SF dogs being deployed never to return has created another major shortage of good stock. 

Seen police at stoke and wolves use Rottweilers and dobermans in 2007

[Nicepix 5,650]

Just now, keepdiggin said:

Seen police at stoke and wolves use Rottweilers and dobermans in 2007

There was a lot of interest in other breeds because of the shortage of GSDs. Rotties generally won't hunt away from their handler. You have to get them young and train them like you would a gundog. It doesn't come naturally to them. Dobermans just haven't got the aptitude for police work. OK for the aggression in a crowd scenario, but not good at tracking and searching. That's why so few are used.

[chartpolski 23,562]

13 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

There was a lot of interest in other breeds because of the shortage of GSDs. Rotties generally won't hunt away from their handler. You have to get them young and train them like you would a gundog. It doesn't come naturally to them. Dobermans just haven't got the aptitude for police work. OK for the aggression in a crowd scenario, but not good at tracking and searching. That's why so few are used.

The world record for a dog tracking a criminal was 100 mile across South Africa by a Doberman

Cheers.

[Nicepix 5,650]

Just now, chartpolski said:

The world record for a dog tracking a criminal was 100 mile across South Africa by a Doberman

Cheers.

A dog cannot track for 100 miles. Around 5 miles maximum in ideal conditions and it would become fatigued. The story is a myth IMO. It cannot be verified as cannot the other claims made for the dog.

The Dutch police around the 1980's were the pioneers at training tracking dogs. They broke new ground and lead the way to many new techniques being introduced.

[terryd 8,423]

8 minutes ago, chartpolski said:

The world record for a dog tracking a criminal was 100 mile across South Africa by a Doberman

Cheers.

Such an interesting fact I had to google it

The Record for the Best Tracking Dog: His Breed May Surprise You

NATIONALPUREBREDDOGDAY.COM

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