Good dogs bad owners

[D Lloyd 2,790]

Been round lot of dog lads over 30 years of keeping working lurchers some IV learned from what to do others IV defiantly learned from what not to do.

What I'd like to now is people's thoughts on heavy handed owners have you come across lads that scream and shout or drag them about buy the scraf or collar or Evan beet them kick them for no good reason because lack of owners paishions .I now that sort of thing makes my blood boil and has coursed a few falling out.the same lads stick to this way of so called training dog after dog with the same results well bred dogs not working for them. Are they jest brakeing the dogs will and confidence that back they jest won't work well

[scottpenn28 246]

My training experience with dogs comes from owning spaniels, cockers at that. Stubborn little things! Always been told and shown that when training them if they get it wrong or don't listen then you "get on them" not in a nasty way, not kicking or hitting, but for example if the dog misses the stop whistle you get to the dog, drag it back by either scruff or under the neck to where you blew whistle and blow the whistle again so it understands. I'm no expert but for me and the dogs I've owned this works. I had a young dog pup who was softer than most and he would drop if you got onto him but never affected his confidence and he was a joy to train, picked up the lessons quicker than any other I've had, sadly things didn't work out for home life and we had to move him on. 

I've now got my first ever lurcher and used this tried and tested method with her and it did not go well. Her recall was good, and her command listening was gold but it shattered her confidence. She's now 18 months old and failed to catch in her first season with a lack of commitment, her recall goes out the window when working. I've now spent the time since realising this (with massive help and guidance I should add) doing no training but just trying to have fun with her in the hope of building her mentally to a point where she knows how good she is. Her first heat saw a mental change in her and I've got everything crossed that the next working season will see her come out of her shell. In this instance it's my belief that the dog is not at fault its purely the owner! And correction is the hardest thing to train. 

[D Lloyd 2,790]

23 minutes ago, scottpenn28 said:

My training experience with dogs comes from owning spaniels, cockers at that. Stubborn little things! Always been told and shown that when training them if they get it wrong or don't listen then you "get on them" not in a nasty way, not kicking or hitting, but for example if the dog misses the stop whistle you get to the dog, drag it back by either scruff or under the neck to where you blew whistle and blow the whistle again so it understands. I'm no expert but for me and the dogs I've owned this works. I had a young dog pup who was softer than most and he would drop if you got onto him but never affected his confidence and he was a joy to train, picked up the lessons quicker than any other I've had, sadly things didn't work out for home life and we had to move him on. 

I've now got my first ever lurcher and used this tried and tested method with her and it did not go well. Her recall was good, and her command listening was gold but it shattered her confidence. She's now 18 months old and failed to catch in her first season with a lack of commitment, her recall goes out the window when working. I've now spent the time since realising this (with massive help and guidance I should add) doing no training but just trying to have fun with her in the hope of building her mentally to a point where she knows how good she is. Her first heat saw a mental change in her and I've got everything crossed that the next working season will see her come out of her shell. In this instance it's my belief that the dog is not at fault its purely the owner! And correction is the hardest thing to train. 

Thanks for that mate out of interest what cross is your lurcher?

Hope it come right for you and well done for sticking with it to many would of jest got rid with out trying

[Halle Berry 6]

I'm no expert but we have just taken in a young dog (18 months old) which had been handled this heavy handed way.  Well bred beautiful coursing type dog with a lovely nature and plenty of prey drive as it turns out but when we first got her she was so frightened of doing wrong that when you asked her to do something she just dithered and wouldn't even think of striking a rabbit right in front of her.  I think she'd been beaten on the recall so she used to cower 10 yards off which was really unhelpful.  Any sudden movement sent her running and screaming.  She was also underweight and horribly tight through her back end with one collapsed toe.  So i'm guessing she'd done a fair bit of work at a young age. 

Her back end has now relaxed, which means she can now really move.  It's been quite confusing trying to figure out the good from the bad because alot of the training she'd obviously had before she came to us has been useful, i.e. she's been broken to stock and walks nicely on the lead.  She is coming out of herself and is getting better at interacting with us but if she feels under the slightest pressure she defaults to shutting down and slinking away.

So my answer to your question would be that physically abusing a dog is counter productive when you want it to work for you.  Our other dogs do their utmost to do what we want and take real pride in doing what they do best.

[Ferretman65 2,177]

It's is hard work but some dogs just can't bend the knee and some can this upside-down don't know why this happens lol I trained these two we dogs like gun dogs and they loved to do anything for you but all didn't work out in the end 

[scottpenn28 246]

17 minutes ago, D Lloyd said:

Thanks for that mate out of interest what cross is your lurcher?

Hope it come right for you and well done for sticking with it to many would of jest got rid with out trying

Shes mainly saluki x grey but I believe there is a bit of bull, whippet and deerhound way back in her. 

Too many dogs get passed around without any attempt to correct, I firmly believe this pup had everything needed to succeed and hasn't because of me so to give up on her would be wrong. I've made the mistakes so if she doesn't make the grade she will plod around with me and the family until the end of her time, hopefully just enjoying herself. 

[Halle Berry 6]

Have to agree with Wideboy, stock breaking and stopping a dog running into danger (like a road) both require something a bit more extreme (an absolute 'no') but if you have the bond established, they have a better reaction to your displeasure/command.  I learnt alot from a dog we had who was 100% the pack leader but also a really nice chap.  Watching him discipline a pup (and still have a bond with them, play with them, sleep with them etc) taught me what they understand and accept as a 'no' without being broken mentally by the experience.

[Countryman62 541]

You’ll always get more out of a dog when training it if you’re gentle with it, being forceful and overbearing will just make the animal shut down

[OldPhil 5,654]

Great replies lads

I USED to be, real heavy handed with my lurchers,...I learned this from my Father and his old man...

They both took in, cur dogs for training, to work the sheep and cattle...

Some of these animals were exceptionally tough, both  physically and mentally...

In fact, the best of the bunch  had a definite urge to hurt and even kill the livestock...

When properly schooled, these hard types frequently made the best workers, but it was an emotional roller coaster getting to that point.

SO,.. training wise,...I never really stood a chance, I was simply a product of my upbringing...

 Back then,. even Gamekeepers wishing for a position on a Sporting Estate, were required to have a Wife (to help out in the Big House) and be in a good stable relationship. A keeper would also have to be well versed in all the devious arts of vermin control, and in the 1970's, there were some right dodgy old methods to destroy, anything that might harm his Governor's precious Birds.. 

And as a final requirement,.. he must of necessity be,.. a competent Dog Breaker....

I have always felt that such a nomenclature, to be just about perfect for a serial dog spoiler,.... of which I have met many .

As stated, I was once a member of that dastardly club myself, and I fecked up plenty of honest lurchers....

Mercifully, I encountered one of the UK's most educated and forward thinking, schoolers of canines..

He took me under his wing, and sorted me out...

Now, I SCHOOL a working dog,...I do not knock them about or act like a divvy,...now, we all work together, as pals....

I would urge all newcomers to the world of the working lurcher, to ignore the words, deeds and actions of big mouthed overbearing guys, and instead, follow the lead of the quiet man...

 I've had a long and successful life with lurchers,.. and if I had my time again,.. I would know exactly how to play it.

 

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by OldPhil

[Sammyballer 146]

I’m pretty soft with mine usually a raised voice and a good stare at them will get most dogs to stop what there doing , when it comes to stock I can be heavy handed because it’s a big thing in the armoury , my current lurcher has never looked at sheep so never needed that heavy hand 

[Black neck 15,819]

Patience is the key ,but sometimes one could kick one's own bollox ,but dunt kick the dog ffs

[sandymere 8,263]

A bit heavy handed in the past  it was the way it was  but gently,  gently  now. To a degree it depends on the dog but as Phil said, train don't break.

[BEARINATOR 2,867]

Had a bitch about 20 years ago stop retrieving after I clipped her one night, so I am more laid back with them now as a shout does 

[jukel123 7,957]

The skill is in assessing the temperament of the dog you have in front of you. Different treatment for different dogs. Too hard and you can ruin a soft dog. Too soft with a hard dog and you have a liability.

 

[Bird Catcher 95]

1 hour ago, jukel123 said:

The skill is in assessing the temperament of the dog you have in front of you. Different treatment for different dogs. Too hard and you can ruin a soft dog. Too soft with a hard dog and you have a liability.

 

Absolutely spot on , as jukel123 says too hard on a sensitive dog and you've ruined him. I got a 6 month Bedlington x that is sensitive to a raised voice , where as my Italian greyhound x whippet needs a firm voice. Its all about the dog in front of you. Neither of mine are timid in the least but they do require different handling to respond. You as the owner are the best to assess the dogs temperament.  Remember NEVER EVER hit or kick a dog , if you do you'll destroy any trust instantly, better to walk off or kennel the dog if your not getting the required results.  My 2 go over the top to please me if I walk off or hide in the hedge from them