Beardies and Kelpies

[MagyarAgar 88]

8 hours ago, neil b said:

Absolutely, 3 of us kept bitches back so at some stage in the future some sort of breeding plan will be put into action 

Keep us posted! Will be interesting to see which direction you choose to go.

[neil b 2,296]

9 hours ago, MagyarAgar said:

Keep us posted! Will be interesting to see which direction you choose to go.

Only once these pups have been well tested over a good few seasons will a further breeding plan be put into action, 

[Neal 1,861]

In addition to the spring-file full of old Shooting News articles, I found some old notebooks and I was perusing one this morning looking for something. I didn't find what I was looking for but I did find some notes I'd made from an old kelpie book by Mike Donelan (that's not the bloke from the Monkees!)

Thought some of you might find these bits interesting:

"My advice to the discipline fanatic has always been - go and buy something else, but don't buy a kelpie."

"I have seen some kelpies over obedience trained that could not work sheep well at all. They were 'push-button' dogs at a young age. They thought obedience was their sole function because their breeders put so much emphasis on it. To such dogs working is just a side line."

"Kelpies will not generally tolerate the discipline that Border collies will. A kelpie is not a push-button dog but more of a do-it-yourself kit. With experience a good one will learn to solve a lot of problems his or her way; too much discipline and they will lose their resourcefulness." 

"Kelpies are one man dogs: kelpies get to be 'mates' and mates do things for 'mates' they won't do for others, it's that simple."

 

I hope I'm not in breach of copyright for typing those out. 

 

[neil b 2,296]

Very true words, them being one man dogs the bond the have with their owners is very strong,

[OldPhil 5,697]

 Hi Neal,.. yes, I read Mike's Kelpie book a long time back....

During the 1980's, I actually encouraged a rabbiting mate to embark on a quest for Kelpie info, during his hunting trip to Oz ..

Back then,.. there was no books or Internet, and we had scant info available, other than from relatives in Australia and New Zealand,.so any news was precious...

Suffice to say, when my pal was out in the Bush, hunting the pigs and sundry critters,.. his mood suddenly changed, and his thoughts turned away from my Kelpie project, and instead he returned home, having purchased a fecking Blue Heeler  pup instead

Consequently,..my own Kelpie plans stopped abruptly, and of course,...lurcher wise, I also went in another direction...

Yes,.. Mike's words sound great ,...and only a fool would disagree with this extremely knowledgeable stockman, however, I  would say,..  we should always remember, that we live in the UK ,.not on an outback sheep station....Different strokes....

If you are a hunting man, with a penchant for including pastoral types, within your lurcher breeding projects, the aim is to use the incredible traits of tractability that such canines posses.

 For, if we do not consciously harness, or actually need that amazing sagacity,....then,. what is the point Herding dogs frequently bring, good feet and wrists to the table, and the sensible ones are easily schooled, but if all a guy wants, is to slip and be damned, then there are better choices.

Personally, I like a working style cur to have the capacity to think for himself, and to work stuff out, more so, when ranging out of sight,.. but, the bottom line is,...when asked to do something, be it 'get on',  or get in',...I expect an instant response.

Feck all this, "chill out man .. I'm a Kelpie,...I don't take orders" malarkey..

I've been around Kelpie hybrids in the field, and they are more than capable of following commands in just the same way as the average Collie Lurcher...

No different.... 

Lets not make them out to be, free thinking hippies, and half feral jukes, that walk their own path to Nirvana,..... Feck  that ..

As with most things , the end result is often down to the training methods employed, and the experience of the handler....

Good discussion lads,...lets keep it up..

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by OldPhil

[Neal 1,861]

Wise words OldPhil. I've found my experience of them to be half and half. 

My lurcher Moss (who was only 1/4 kelpie ameliorated with border collie and greyhound) was just as biddable as previous collie crosses. However, as others on here have said, he was definitely 'different.' I wouldn't go so far as to say he was cleverer, but he certainly seemed more worldly wise at a younger age.

Then, when I got Rusty, I assumed (from what I'd read in breed books about kelpies) that he'd be like a collie but tougher in the heat. I found him to be extremely willing to please but he seemed to be less 'intelligent' than the lurcher. I came to realize that the difference was that Moss learnt things for his benefit whereas Rusty learnt them for mine. If he got something wrong he'd stare at me intently and it was as though he was saying, 'OK, we've got this wrong somewhere, let's try again, maybe if you explain it differently.' He taught me far more about dog training than any dog before or since.

Actually, his attitude has reminded me of another quote from the same notebook but this one's from James Joyce: "errors are the portals of discovery." I'd written it down as it fitted my own teaching philosophy as there's research to suggest that we learn 'better' when we fail first...that'll be why I'm so clever.

Back to Rusty, I gradually discovered that if I taught him like my previous dogs, he'd get it but I could see him losing his individuality. This is when I decided to take more of a step back with training and let them take it at their own pace and to do things their way.

One experience, which I think I've repeated on here a few times, is from the lady who bred both Noggin and Maud. Her first kelpie was Rusty's uncle and was bred from two of the original kelpies to come to the UK. She told me how she was training him in the same way as she'd done with her previous collies. One day, while using the usual "come bye/away" type commands he simply stopped working and she couldn't get him to do anything. It wasn't until she stopped shouting at him and went to walk off that he got up again, rounded up the sheep she wanted and put them where she'd wanted them without any further instructions. She said she's since realized that if you keep giving a kelpie an instruction when it's already doing the right thing (as you'd often do with other breeds to confirm with them that what they're doing is right) it starts to assume the opposite. They think 'oh, I thought I WAS going clockwise, is that not right then? I'll do somethings else. What? Oh that's wrong too. I'm getting confused here. I thought you DID want them over there.'

So, to sum up, I'd say I probably could get my kelpies to be as exact as my old collie x whippet (probably my best 'trained' dog ever) but they wouldn't seem the same and they'd lose their 'something else.'

Edited to add: I forgot to say...ooh! New book. Will it be ready for Christmas?

Edited May 22, 2022 by Neal

[sandymere 8,263]

On 21/05/2022 at 16:34, Neal said:

Thanks, that makes sense. It could also explain why so many kelpie studs in Australia only have black and tans now. 

As I said, I've always been firmly of the opinion that a good dog is never a bad colour, it's just that the nerdy part of my brain (always wanting to know more about something I don't know about...must be the teacher in me) finds the subject fascinating. 

Coincidentally, I'm currently reading Walsh and Lowe's Whippet book (which I bought a first edition of in a charity shop for £1.50 last year!) and the last part I read was the section on colour breeding and recessive genes.

Kelpiegallery.se - Colours of kelpie

WWW.KELPIEGALLERY.SE

---

Kelpiegallery - a photo gallery of pure breed Australian Kelpie.

 

[Neal 1,861]

Thanks Sandymere. I think I've read that page before...you can see why I find it so confusing. It's a good job we use working dogs so colour is of less importance but, as I said, it's a fascinating subject.

If this was Countdown, mine have been "Two from the top left, one from the top right and three from the bottom left."

[Neal 1,861]

I just wanted to add one last post and then put this topic to bed. I've re-read my original post and realised I've, inevitably, moved to other themes.

My original question was about similarities and differences between kelpies and beardies, particularly with regards to their character. This was brought about by the fact that, because of the possibility of Noggin's cancer returning sooner rather than later, I'd need to think about which dog to replace him with much sooner than I expected and I was feeling some nostalgia for my old beardie crosses, especially the 3/4 collie. 

What I've decided to do is to stay positive for the time being (he may prove the vets wrong and keep going for another eight years) and not worry about replacing him until the time comes. By that time I'll have a clearer idea of how Maud's turned out and whether I want to stick with pure kelpies or take a similar or different route. Whether that be a kelpie cross whippet, a kelpie cross something else or possibly a small gundog based bushing dog. Who knows? Time will tell.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful responses and I'll get back to enjoying the dogs I've got rather than worrying about the future.

[neil b 2,296]

Personally I prefer my kelpie character over my beardie, it’s took her the best part of 2 years to come too, iv done nothing different with her than my other lurchers she’s very much an independent type where as my border half x and kelpie x do it to please me she does it as and when she’s ready, 

[bird 9,872]

3 hours ago, Neal said:

I just wanted to add one last post and then put this topic to bed. I've re-read my original post and realised I've, inevitably, moved to other themes.

My original question was about similarities and differences between kelpies and beardies, particularly with regards to their character. This was brought about by the fact that, because of the possibility of Noggin's cancer returning sooner rather than later, I'd need to think about which dog to replace him with much sooner than I expected and I was feeling some nostalgia for my old beardie crosses, especially the 3/4 collie. 

What I've decided to do is to stay positive for the time being (he may prove the vets wrong and keep going for another eight years) and not worry about replacing him until the time comes. By that time I'll have a clearer idea of how Maud's turned out and whether I want to stick with pure kelpies or take a similar or different route. Whether that be a kelpie cross whippet, a kelpie cross something else or possibly a small gundog based bushing dog. Who knows? Time will tell.

Anyway, thanks for all the helpful responses and I'll get back to enjoying the dogs I've got rather than worrying about the future.

sent a pm

[Neal 1,861]

6 hours ago, neil b said:

Personally I prefer my kelpie character over my beardie, it’s took her the best part of 2 years to come too, iv done nothing different with her than my other lurchers she’s very much an independent type where as my border half x and kelpie x do it to please me she does it as and when she’s ready, 

I've been thinking about what you wrote during the afternoon and I think I agree. Although my beardie cross was very intelligent, it did, looking back, seem to be more about what she could get out of it. She was great at solving problems but would only do "precisely" as she was asked if it was "precisely" what she wanted. She could jump really well but I couldn't get her to jump on command. She'd always think 'why jump that barbed wire fence when there's a gap there?'

The 3/4 collie and the collie x whippet (which also had beardie blood) were much less like this and I've always assumed it was because the border blood made them more 'willing to please'. Having said that, of the three, I preferred Jem and he was half and half beardie/border whereas Skye (the collie x whippet) was 3/4 border 1/4 beardie on the collie side. Maybe, for myself, I need the mix to be even i.e. Tessa was too 'beardieish' but Skye was too 'borderish.' This is beginning to sound like Goldilocks...Jem (and kelpies) must be my baby bear.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Neal

[bird 9,872]

18 hours ago, Neal said:

I've been thinking about what you wrote during the afternoon and I think I agree. Although my beardie cross was very intelligent, it did, looking back, seem to be more about what she could get out of it. She was great at solving problems but would only do "precisely" as she was asked if it was "precisely" what she wanted. She could jump really well but I couldn't get her to jump on command. She'd always think 'why jump that barbed wire fence when there's a gap there?'

The 3/4 collie and the collie x whippet (which also had beardie blood) were much less like this and I've always assumed it was because the border blood made them more 'willing to please'. Having said that, of the three, I preferred Jem and he was half and half beardie/border whereas Skye (the collie x whippet) was 3/4 border 1/4 beardie on the collie side. Maybe, for myself, I need the mix to be even i.e. Tessa was too 'beardieish' but Skye was too 'borderish.' This is beginning to sound like Goldilocks...Jem (and kelpies) must be my baby bear.

Lol. Told yeh get  some Dutch shep in the mix, only joking lol, I do like the breed though. Stick with your kelpie or  ones with kelpie in the mix, stick with dogs you know, and like, that's 1/2 that's battle with any type dog I've learned over the years. Old Bryn the 1x collie xgrey, was brill rabbit dog day/night, but had collie type temp that pissed me off lot of times. Buck my 1x gsd xgrey, prob my best alrounder lurcher I've ever owned, took what I sipped him on, great retriever   good pace for big dog, good agility, and  great temp with people, kids, dogs. But he as sensitive temp, you up set him easy, so  handle him nice and steady, all dogs got funny quirks lol. Just thinking about beardie and there btemps, my mate had 2 off hancock years back, one was 1/4 beardie x border x 3/4grey, big fawn rough coat dog 27 in 70 lb take hares in the day, fox and rabbits in the lamp. His other was 3/8 b/B 5/8 grey  bitch  not keen on fox, good rabbits, but fook me was she moody thing, sometimes she sometimes she wouldn't put my mate off the x, his next dog was 1/2 collie x whippet x grey, 24 in strong good on fox and rabbits. And  OK not hare dog, but run few with good wind.

[Neal 1,861]

I'm feeling a tad more optimistic now as she caught her first squirrel this morning. Unfortunately, it wriggled too much so she didn't make the retrieve so it won't count, but...

I've always found they have to catch at least one squirrel (sometimes two or three) before they actually catch one. Rusty always tried to live retrieve both squirrels and rats...silly sod.

[shaaark 10,721]

5 hours ago, Neal said:

I'm feeling a tad more optimistic now as she caught her first squirrel this morning. Unfortunately, it wriggled too much so she didn't make the retrieve so it won't count, but...

I've always found they have to catch at least one squirrel (sometimes two or three) before they actually catch one. Rusty always tried to live retrieve both squirrels and rats...silly sod.

Neal, I know you obviously like your pastoral types, but given the fact you're not too bothered if your dogs actually make a catch/kill, but when they do 'it's a bonus, wouldn't something with a bit of terrier in make more sense when they do make a catch?

I know a lot of terrier blooded dogs can be a bit intense, but plenty aren't, and will maybe give you what you're after.

Unless you're totally against terrier crosses!!  Lol.

Just thinking a tad 'outside the box' lol. 

Edited May 26, 2022 by shaaark