Sheep Issue

[MagyarAgar 88]

16 hours ago, sandymere said:

Why?  original proto dogs where not thought to ha been based on Scandinavian decent so where did it come from and as such raises some questions on the history of the Dingo. I find it interesting that if it likely had some northern European ancestors in part, yet it was though to have originated in Asia, it might suggest its ancestors had spread out from its origins to Europe then back to Asia.

Where Did Dogs Come From? There May Be Two Answers. - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

---

A scientist studying the origins of dogs suggests they may have been domesticated twice.

As to the study design, it does what it says on the tin, looks at the genetics of the breed so what do you find wrong with the paper?

 

Because they just look at some single loci. That’s just not enough. And proto-dogs probably already migrated with us all over the world so it is hardly surprising to find scandinavian wolf genes in Dingos.

[MagyarAgar 88]

2 hours ago, Aussie Whip said:

I can't find any info online about this but I was told by a lady who kept dingoes the main difference between them and domestic dogs is that the dingo has a wider head than chest, no domestic breed has this. I think it was how she knew the difference between pure dingo and feral dog crosses.

These methods seem to be highly inaccurate and super subjective. As far as I have read.

[SheepChaser 8,083]

We now have an obsession with the ‘wild’ in our domestic animals. But for a very very long time we wanted nothing to do with it. People forget that. 

[MagyarAgar 88]

1 hour ago, sandymere said:

If it was there it would likely be found, consider they found a unexpected wolf ancestor from pre Dingo ancestors, thousands of years in the past but not a Dingo from relatively recent years in the Kelpies....

In science one should never say never and there could possible be Dingo in Australian herding dogs as a whole but if so it would be so tiny an amount to have no effect on the genetic outcomes/makeup of individual dogs. Perhaps future techniques will show something different but for now all the evidence in the genetic make up is negative so we are left with unsupported claims versus well supported science.

In these cases, as ever follow, the science.

That’s just not true. It is not all the evidence that points into this direction. There are studies that show an influence. And as I have posted before it is really hard to do proper genetic testing because we are hard pressed to find „real“ dingos that did not hybridize in the past. What I say is, that the hypothesis is wrong, since you are genetically comparing dingo dog hybrids (feral) with dingo dog hybrids (kelpie). And thats a problem we have in science, if your hypothesis is flawed than your experiment is basically worthless.

And as OldPhil said we see the finished product today and if there was some dingo influence it probably had some effects that were desirable and further reinforced by proper breeding.

[Black neck 15,890]

43 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

We now have an obsession with the ‘wild’ in our domestic animals. But for a very very long time we wanted nothing to do with it. People forget that. 

1 of mine percent wild 

[OldPhil 5,705]

Yes, time moves on, and at this juncture, I reckon we have reached a pinnacle as regards getting what we want, from the Wild Canids.. Our Sheepdogs are superb, our racing and coursing dogs are amazing, and even the diminutive dirt dawgs have been bred to go deep, if needed and,.. feck me, even our working ferrets are top notch

The hunting life , as  we know it in the UK, is destined to change,...and its a crying shame that just when the breeders finally created something really special,.. the laws of the land will dictate, that such phenomenally unique animals, can no longer be used... 

Obviously, certain breeds and types will remain,...sheep have to be handled, and noxious pests that are a threat to human health, will always need to be controlled, but basically,...the future does not look bright...

As an aside,...I remember breeding a litter of ACD x Greyhounds,. back in the mid 1980's ..

I've bred a fair few litters of roustabout running dogs,.. hardly on a commercial basis, but a fair few...

This particular litter of eight dogs and two bitches, really were different to anything that I have ever seen...

They were ultra aggressive to strangers, even at an early age, and whilst in no way shy or spooky, they were amazingly suspicious of anything new or alien to them...I once saw the entire litter attack a length of rubber garden hose in the manner of wild dogs, killing a snake...To be honest, one could write a quite extensive article on the behavioural patterns of these strange lurcher hybrids...Their linage was Australian Cattle Dog on the top side,.. and I would be astonished if there was no Dingo genes lurking around, in the back ground somewhere, however distantly removed

Go careful now lads,...all the best, OldPhil.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by OldPhil

[Black neck 15,890]

4 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Yes, time moves on, and at this juncture, I reckon we have reached a pinnacle as regards getting what we want, from the Wild Canids.. Our Sheepdogs are superb, our racing and coursing dogs are amazing, and even the diminutive dirt dawgs have been bred to go deep, if needed and,.. feck me, even our working ferrets are top notch

The hunting life , as  we know it in the UK, is destined to change,...and its a crying shame that just when the breeders finally created something really special,.. the laws of the land will dictate, that such phenomenally unique animals, can no longer be used... 

Obviously, certain breeds and types will remain,...sheep have to be handled, and noxious pests that are a threat to human health, will always need to be controlled, but basically,...the future does not look bright...

As an aside,...I remember breeding a litter of ACD x Greyhounds,. back in the mid 1980's ..

I've bred a fair few litters of roustabout running dogs,.. hardly on a commercial basis, but a fair few...

This particular litter of eight dogs and two bitches, really were different to anything that I have ever seen...

They were ultra aggressive to strangers, even at an early age, and whilst in no way shy or spooky, they were amazingly suspicious of anything new or alien to them...I once saw the entire litter attack a length of rubber garden hose in the manner of wild dogs, killing a snake...To be honest, one could write a quite extensive article on the behavioural patterns of these strange lurcher hybrids...Their linage was Australian Cattle Dog on the top side,.. and I would be astonished if there was no Dingo genes lurking around, in the back ground somewhere, however distantly removed

Go careful now lads,...all the best, OldPhil.

 

 

Were them the ones that caught and retrieved a spandex clad jogger

[sandymere 8,263]

7 hours ago, SheepChaser said:

We now have an obsession with the ‘wild’ in our domestic animals. But for a very very long time we wanted nothing to do with it. People forget that. 

Indeed the very reason we have dogs is because they are better than their wild ancestors.

[sandymere 8,263]

5 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Yes, time moves on, and at this juncture, I reckon we have reached a pinnacle as regards getting what we want, from the Wild Canids.. Our Sheepdogs are superb, our racing and coursing dogs are amazing, and even the diminutive dirt dawgs have been bred to go deep, if needed and,.. feck me, even our working ferrets are top notch

The hunting life , as  we know it in the UK, is destined to change,...and its a crying shame that just when the breeders finally created something really special,.. the laws of the land will dictate, that such phenomenally unique animals, can no longer be used... 

Obviously, certain breeds and types will remain,...sheep have to be handled, and noxious pests that are a threat to human health, will always need to be controlled, but basically,...the future does not look bright...

As an aside,...I remember breeding a litter of ACD x Greyhounds,. back in the mid 1980's ..

I've bred a fair few litters of roustabout running dogs,.. hardly on a commercial basis, but a fair few...

This particular litter of eight dogs and two bitches, really were different to anything that I have ever seen...

They were ultra aggressive to strangers, even at an early age, and whilst in no way shy or spooky, they were amazingly suspicious of anything new or alien to them...I once saw the entire litter attack a length of rubber garden hose in the manner of wild dogs, killing a snake...To be honest, one could write a quite extensive article on the behavioural patterns of these strange lurcher hybrids...Their linage was Australian Cattle Dog on the top side,.. and I would be astonished if there was no Dingo genes lurking around, in the back ground somewhere, however distantly removed

Go careful now lads,...all the best, OldPhil.

 

 

i'd agree, we have greyhounds in my lifetime that will have been the fastest racing dogs to have ever graced this earth, coursing dogs in Spain, North Africa and i believe the UK that are the pinnacle of their type and collies that would put their ancestors to shame. But the day of the dog as more than a pet is coming to an end and with it the superlatives that we were lucky enough to have witnessed and I'm just glad that I did not just witness it but raced the greyhounds and ran the hares.

 

 

[Black neck 15,890]

1 hour ago, sandymere said:

i'd agree, we have greyhounds in my lifetime that will have been the fastest racing dogs to have ever graced this earth, coursing dogs in Spain, North Africa and i believe the UK that are the pinnacle of their type and collies that would put their ancestors to shame. But the day of the dog as more than a pet is coming to an end and with it the superlatives that we were lucky enough to have witnessed and I'm just glad that I did not just witness it but raced the greyhounds and ran the hares.

 

 

Very poignant sir

[Aussie Whip 4,096]

11 hours ago, OldPhil said:

This particular litter of eight dogs and two bitches, really were different to anything that I have ever seen...

They were ultra aggressive to strangers, even at an early age, and whilst in no way shy or spooky, they were amazingly suspicious of anything new or alien to them...I once saw the entire litter attack a length of rubber garden hose in the manner of wild dogs, killing a snake...To be honest, one could write a quite extensive article on the behavioural patterns of these strange lurcher hybrids...Their linage was Australian Cattle Dog on the top side,.. and I would be astonished if there was no Dingo genes lurking around, in the back ground somewhere, however distantly removed

Sounds like the cattle dog you used had latent dingo blood and by your description would be considered a very good type over here.

[Aussie Whip 4,096]

Whether the kelpie has dingo blood or not they were developed in the same harsh environment, only breeding the best equipped for this. The dingo is the optimal size and shape designed by nature and it doesn't surprise me that a domestic breed living and working here and not bred for looks at all would follow the wild dog appearance.

Edited March 9, 2022 by Aussie Whip

[sandymere 8,263]

6 hours ago, Aussie Whip said:

Whether the kelpie has dingo blood or not they were developed in the same hash environment, only breeding the best equipped for this. The dingo is the optimal size and shape designed by nature and it doesn't surprise me that a domestic breed living and working here and not bred for looks at all would follow the wild dog appearance.

Convergent evolution. It wouldn't be a massive shift to go from pye to dingo.

Pye-dog - Wikipedia

EN.WIKIPEDIA.ORG

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by sandymere

[Neal 1,862]

Is it possible to cut and paste the last few pages and put it on one of the kelpie/cattle dog threads?

My son and I had a "meet and greet" session at Exmoor Zoo last summer with the singing dogs. We had a great chat with the keeper who really knew her stuff and was even quoting recent dingo research that I'd been reading up on just before the holiday re how dingoes and singing dogs are related and how they were "introduced" into Australia much earlier than was previously thought. Fascinating stuff!

But, as others have said, I wouldn't want to try rounding up sheep with a dingo!

Re dingo blood in cattle dogs, I was always led to believe that it was more accepted that there was definitely dingo blood involved. Similar to your hose story OldPhil, I remember John Holmes commenting on the innate wariness of his cattle dogs. Maud is a bit like that too. Somebody left a shopping trolley in my local wood a few weeks ago and she gave it a wide circle and grumbled continually, "This is a local wood, we'll have no trouble here." Every time she encounters something new, her knee jerk reaction is a kind of mumbling, grumbling woof. It's like her body simply can't help itself rather than her brain actively choosing to bark. Like canine tourettes. She'd be useless for poaching. Every time she saw a keeper she'd go, "Woof: oops sorry!"

Re Aussiewhip's last post, I've noticed how Australian Border collies are a lot more kelpie/dingo like than British ones. Not just the length of the coat either. Conversely, some UK kelpies sometimes look more like black and tan Border collies than those in Australia.

[SheepChaser 8,083]

Two observations -

1 - people want the ‘wild’ in their animals, they think it makes them edgy. EU polecats being a good example.

2 - lots of Kelpies are yappy, scatty wastes of space, not wonder dogs from afar.