Sheep Issue

[Neal 1,862]

15 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Thanks Neal,....

 

Is that one of Plummer's white German Shepherd's?

Only joking!

[sandymere 8,263]

Modern genetic testing, not the stuff on the internet but the real university labs lol, is highly specific and it would appear the link between Kelpie and Dingo is a myth rather than reality. Shame as it adds a little piquancy to the mystic of the breed.

Iconic Australian working dog may not be part dingo after all: Genetic evidence shows kelpies have no detectable dingo in their DNA -- ScienceDaily

WWW.SCIENCEDAILY.COM

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Researchers have found no genetic evidence that the iconic Australian kelpie shares canine ancestry with a dingo, despite Australian bush myth.

 

original source. 

Genomic Characterization of External Morphology Traits in Kelpies Does Not Support Common Ancestry with the Australian Dingo

WWW.MDPI.COM

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The Kelpie is a breed developed in Australia for use as a livestock herding dog. It has been proposed that the development of the breed included gene flow from the...

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by sandymere

[Black neck 15,890]

1 minute ago, sandymere said:

Modern genetic testing, not the stuff on the internet but the real university labs lol, is highly specific and it would appear the link between Kelpie and Dingo is a myth rather than reality. Shame as it adds a little piquancy to the mystic of the breed.

Genomic Characterization of External Morphology Traits in Kelpies Does Not Support Common Ancestry with the Australian Dingo

WWW.MDPI.COM

---

The Kelpie is a breed developed in Australia for use as a livestock herding dog. It has been proposed that the development of the breed included gene flow from the...

 

 

Piquancy ffs 

That's not a thing  

[sandymere 8,263]

As an aside, one threat to Dingoes, as it is to the Scottish wild cat, is the wild population hybridising with their domestic counterparts leading to loss of the unique genealogy and disease spread  rather than the other way round.

Hybridisation between dingoes and domestic dogs in proximity to Indigenous communities in northern Australia - PubMed

PUBMED.NCBI.NLM.NIH.GOV

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In northern Australia, wild dog populations potentially interact with domestic dogs from remote communities, which would create opportunities for disease...

 

[Neal 1,862]

I read a couple of years ago that one of the drawbacks of genetic testing is that some tests only pick up elements which are passed on through the female line while others do the opposite. I actually read that in relation to that study which claimed there was no dingo in kelpies. I think the other study put the percentage at about 4% on average after taking samples from some of the top studs in Australia.

Hang on...weren't we writing about sheep worrying.

[shaaark 10,721]

2 hours ago, sandymere said:

mystic

Mystique   

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by shaaark

[sandymere 8,263]

56 minutes ago, Neal said:

I read a couple of years ago that one of the drawbacks of genetic testing is that some tests only pick up elements which are passed on through the female line while others do the opposite. I actually read that in relation to that study which claimed there was no dingo in kelpies. I think the other study put the percentage at about 4% on average after taking samples from some of the top studs in Australia.

Hang on...weren't we writing about sheep worrying.

Alas no, its a valid study, not popular but valid so can't blame the Dingoes if your Kelpie goes off on one with the sheep lol.. interesting the Dingo has links to the Scandinavian wolf. 

"There is little or no evidence in the present data to support a history of significant introgression of Dingo into either Kelpie variety. The Dingo and domestic Kelpie populations have different segregation of yellow/ginger coat color (Kelpie via MC1R while Dingo via ASIP) (Table 2). The populations also have different alleles at MITF, RALY, and MSRB3. The Dingo variant at MITF (11C10A2G12A) has been previously described as being observed in a Scandinavian wolf."

[MagyarAgar 88]

3 hours ago, sandymere said:

Modern genetic testing, not the stuff on the internet but the real university labs lol, is highly specific and it would appear the link between Kelpie and Dingo is a myth rather than reality. Shame as it adds a little piquancy to the mystic of the breed.

Iconic Australian working dog may not be part dingo after all: Genetic evidence shows kelpies have no detectable dingo in their DNA -- ScienceDaily

WWW.SCIENCEDAILY.COM

---

Researchers have found no genetic evidence that the iconic Australian kelpie shares canine ancestry with a dingo, despite Australian bush myth.

 

original source. 

Genomic Characterization of External Morphology Traits in Kelpies Does Not Support Common Ancestry with the Australian Dingo

WWW.MDPI.COM

---

The Kelpie is a breed developed in Australia for use as a livestock herding dog. It has been proposed that the development of the breed included gene flow from the...

 

 

I think this is not so easy. For proper testing we would need Dingo genetic material from pre-european colonialisation to have „pure“ dingo genes to compare against. Your own post further down shows dingo hybridisationen with dogs is a huge „problem“ and is so for probably quite some time, which means there is no genetic gold sample. See also: doi:10.1111/j.1365-2907.2006.00086.x
 

Then you have the problem of reference groups and that dingo influence for most Kelpies happened multiple generations ago which does not make it easier to proof.
I would not trust any genetic study at the moment that conclusively states to have proven/disproven Dingo influence in the makeup of the kelpie.

[MagyarAgar 88]

11 minutes ago, sandymere said:

Alas no, its a valid study, not popular but valid so can't blame the Dingoes if your Kelpie goes off on one with the sheep lol.. interesting the Dingo has links to the Scandinavian wolf. 

"There is little or no evidence in the present data to support a history of significant introgression of Dingo into either Kelpie variety. The Dingo and domestic Kelpie populations have different segregation of yellow/ginger coat color (Kelpie via MC1R while Dingo via ASIP) (Table 2). The populations also have different alleles at MITF, RALY, and MSRB3. The Dingo variant at MITF (11C10A2G12A) has been previously described as being observed in a Scandinavian wolf."

I don’t buy that.
ince all dogs have a common wolf ancestor and since the dingo probably once was at least a proto-dog the observation of scandinavian wolf genes is rather uninteresting.
All in all I do not like the study design of the linked paper.

[Black neck 15,890]

14 minutes ago, MagyarAgar said:

I don’t buy that.
ince all dogs have a common wolf ancestor and since the dingo probably once was at least a proto-dog the observation of scandinavian wolf genes is rather uninteresting.
All in all I do not like the study design of the linked paper.

Me neither its like some cracker wrote it

[sandymere 8,263]

1 hour ago, MagyarAgar said:

I don’t buy that.
ince all dogs have a common wolf ancestor and since the dingo probably once was at least a proto-dog the observation of scandinavian wolf genes is rather uninteresting.
All in all I do not like the study design of the linked paper.

Why?  original proto dogs where not thought to ha been based on Scandinavian decent so where did it come from and as such raises some questions on the history of the Dingo. I find it interesting that if it likely had some northern European ancestors in part, yet it was though to have originated in Asia, it might suggest its ancestors had spread out from its origins to Europe then back to Asia.

Where Did Dogs Come From? There May Be Two Answers. - The New York Times

WWW.NYTIMES.COM

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A scientist studying the origins of dogs suggests they may have been domesticated twice.

As to the study design, it does what it says on the tin, looks at the genetics of the breed so what do you find wrong with the paper?

 

[OldPhil 5,705]

Perhaps the genetic influence of the Dingo, amongst the localised herding dogs of the earliest settlers, has now been totally eradicated and is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to give any scientific credence to

Given the stockman's intense dislike, and noted hatred for the wild dog Dingo, I doubt any such mating, either by accident or design, would ever receive nationwide publicity...however, it would be a ridiculous premise to suggest that amongst the vast wilderness of outback Australasia, that no such couplings twixt Collie and Dingo, ever took place 

Scientific data is always fascinating and the wise and considered words and findings of educated men, should never be ignored,..by the same token,.. the 'gut feeling' of many hands on , working stockmen is also worth listening to....

Personally, I believe the modern kelpie is now very cleverly bred, and the bloodlines are recorded for all to see. 

We have the finished product,.. one of the most superlative types of herding canine in the world,..so there would be no need to ever go looking for some wild dog to put into the mix.  

Things are not always what they seem...

In much the same way as the contemporary, Hard Blood  , non-ped Racing Whippet..

At first, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was added, and played a big part in improving the type, but nowadays, that true grit influence, is no longer required. In fact, in many specimens of these fiery speedsters, it would seem to be an unlikely occurrence,.. but in truth, it most definitely happened... 

Anyway,...Life moves on...eh

Good discussion lads,...many thanks...regards, OldPhil.

 

Edited March 7, 2022 by OldPhil

[Aussie Whip 4,096]

I can't find any info online about this but I was told by a lady who kept dingoes the main difference between them and domestic dogs is that the dingo has a wider head than chest, no domestic breed has this. I think it was how she knew the difference between pure dingo and feral dog crosses.

[chartpolski 23,376]

13 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Perhaps the genetic influence of the Dingo, amongst the localised herding dogs of the earliest settlers, has now been totally eradicated and is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to give any scientific credence to

Given the stockman's intense dislike, and noted hatred for the wild dog Dingo, I doubt any such mating, either by accident or design, would ever receive nationwide publicity...however, it would be a ridiculous premise to suggest that amongst the vast wilderness of outback Australasia, that no such couplings twixt Collie and Dingo, ever took place 

Scientific data is always fascinating and the wise and considered words and findings of educated men, should never be ignored,..by the same token,.. the 'gut feeling' of many hands on , working stockmen is also worth listening to....

Personally, I believe the modern kelpie is now very cleverly bred, and the bloodlines are recorded for all to see. 

We have the finished product,.. one of the most superlative types of herding canine in the world,..so there would be no need to ever go looking for some wild dog to put into the mix.  

Things are not always what they seem...

In much the same way as the contemporary, Hard Blood  , non-ped Racing Whippet..

At first, the Staffordshire Bull Terrier was added, and played a big part in improving the type, but nowadays, that true grit influence, is no longer required. In fact, in many specimens of these fiery speedsters, it would seem to be an unlikely occurrence,.. but in truth, it most definitely happened... 

Anyway,...Life moves on...eh

Good discussion lads,...many thanks...regards, OldPhil.

 

It's very rare the staffy blood rears its head in non-peds these days, but it must be a tough old gene as it periodically happens.

I had two non-peds that looked like racy staffies back in the '70's, both extremely well bred, one sired by R.Ch Haymaker, and one sired by the great scratch dog Red Baron.

The former never looked like making the grade and was given to a mate and made a good ferreting and rabbiting dog.

The latter was extremely fast and won me a few money matches, but was injury prone.

A friend bred a litter from a top non-ped stud dog and a Greyhound bitch around ten years ago. The whole litter made the grade, bar one, which looked exactly like that "double muscled " Whippet picture that pops up now and again, and had a very strange running style, almost running sideways! It suffered from a lot of muscle injuries and was put down.

There used to be a few that had broken coats, from the Bedlington influence, but I've never seen any like that for many years.

Cheers.

[sandymere 8,263]

14 hours ago, OldPhil said:

Perhaps the genetic influence of the Dingo, amongst the localised herding dogs of the earliest settlers, has now been totally eradicated and is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to give any scientific credence to

If it was there it would likely be found, consider they found a unexpected wolf ancestor from pre Dingo ancestors, thousands of years in the past but not a Dingo from relatively recent years in the Kelpies....

In science one should never say never and there could possible be Dingo in Australian herding dogs as a whole but if so it would be so tiny an amount to have no effect on the genetic outcomes/makeup of individual dogs. Perhaps future techniques will show something different but for now all the evidence in the genetic make up is negative so we are left with unsupported claims versus well supported science.

In these cases, as ever follow, the science.