Origins of the black dogs

[Greb147 6,809]

That's not to say bull was never in the fell types to begin with, nothing is black & white regarding dogs.

[Glyn..... 5,208]

31 minutes ago, Greb147 said:

There's been black un's for donkeys years, just look at the fell types.

My guess though is that the smooth coated Nuttall type are a relatively modern type whereby he or his grandfather crossed pit dogs/bull types with the fell types.

Brian told me he used his Grandfathers dog fells which had been mated to two tiny pit bulls  over his  border Bitch , he line bred those then used Frank Bucks Davey,  then most of the studs he used for new blood were Breay/Buck blood 

[Gypsydog94 4,607]

4 hours ago, timmy k said:

So the big names in the terrier world such as bn, jp, ac etc etc are said to of started their lines off with buck and or breay stuff but obviously went off on their own routes depending on what suited them, and then people acquired their stuff and so on and so forth. But are we to belive that buck and breay where the only ones with black terriers that could hold the torch or were their others about who should perhaps get some recognition. And if they were the only two worth mentioning where did their dogs come from. 

I'm bored and waiting for the season to start so feel free to argue, I need some fun

We’re they the first two to actually breed to type and keep a record of breedings rather then just best worker to best worker? Did buck and breay look for being a name in the black dog history? Or did the people after them hype them up till they become a name in a book? Someone on here will have a better idea then me. 

[chesney 5,451]

Where ever they orignated from the black uns are terrier mans dream in the right hands and a peddlers dream on the otherside of the coin 

[lurchers 2,854]

That time me and my stepfather went down frank bucks so I could get a pup from him,he hated the name patterdale even though he had reds and blacks in at the time.He said they are Lakeland’s (the black ones) not patterdales or fells,I was like ok it’s just what people call them.But him and my father knew everybody once they got talking.his wife had a pure Lakeland bitch in which frank hated but it was smashed off a otter in a pipe when he was out taken the dogs out for a walk.He was a funny bloke.

[Countryman62 542]

1 hour ago, lurchers said:

That time me and my stepfather went down frank bucks so I could get a pup from him,he hated the name patterdale even though he had reds and blacks in at the time.He said they are Lakeland’s (the black ones) not patterdales or fells,I was like ok it’s just what people call them.But him and my father knew everybody once they got talking.his wife had a pure Lakeland bitch in which frank hated but it was smashed off a otter in a pipe when he was out taken the dogs out for a walk.He was a funny bloke.

Seen otters dug to a few times over forty odd years ago, none of them was a match for a hard bitten terrier.

[timmy k 591]

10 hours ago, Bosun11 said:

Just buy a copy of Fell Terrier tight arse and make your own mind up

I'll wait till you buy it, lend it off you and not give it back.

[Bosun11 537]

In Plummers Fell Terrier it shows a picture of what looks like a chocolate with a massive bull terrier head that a bloke called Bradley brought from the North East, which its said entered the Breay/Buck line.

I've also read (not in FT) that there were many black dogs in the NE, before they came to the Lakes.

In older photo's Bucks dogs always look very Border like and quite different from the dogs considered Breay/Buck dogs, in his later years he kept blacks. 

[Bosun11 537]

[Glyn..... 5,208]

J.Park with his line bred Breay stock , influences of both border and bull,  mid 70's I think 

In 1850s a high sheriff bought a black broken coated bull + terrier from london and took it to the lakes 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Glyn.....

[eastcoast 4,150]

1 hour ago, Glyn..... said:

J.Park with his line bred Breay stock , influences of both border and bull,  mid 70's I think 

In 1850s a high sheriff bought a black broken coated bull + terrier from london and took it to the lakes 

The terrier on the right is very much of a physical type that was referred to as a border/lakeland at one time. I remember people having them and they more or less seemed to breed true to type. Those types and Russells just seemed to get superseded by the "Patterdale" in the 1980's. The Patterdale is obviously very much a worker but I'm not sure exactly how much fashion played a part in it's rise in popularity. 

[Countryman62 542]

On 22/08/2021 at 20:13, Greb147 said:

That's not to say bull was never in the fell types to begin with, nothing is black & white regarding dogs.

Pied dogs are lol

[JMc 226]

Some nice old photos there,don’t know where I found this but it’s old...how old??

[Gypsydog94 4,607]

8 hours ago, JMc said:

Some nice old photos there,don’t know where I found this but it’s old...how old??

That’s the yellow Earl. Good book written about him 

[possumtrapper 46]

18 hours ago, Gypsydog94 said:

That’s the yellow Earl. Good book written about him 

He must of got hot digging in that clobber!