Afghanistan

[SheepChaser 8,083]

What a surprise. The w*nker world police invaded a country, fought a war, destroyed the place, killed a load of people and did no good whatsoever and then left it worse than it was.

Good work guys good work.

I cannot believe anyone is really dumb enough to think we went in with good intentions and were ever going to do any good. 

[SheepChaser 8,083]

Oh and anyone who think removing sandal hussein was good for the world ..... is either very naive ..... or just dumb. 

[WILF 46,492]

13 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

Oh and anyone who think removing sandal hussein was good for the world ..... is either very naive ..... or just dumb. 

I think you always have to be careful to separate the political from the military in these conversations.

I also think between the first gulf war and the second & Afghanistan we are talking about totally different conflicts.

The first was a big bully neighbour attacking its smaller oil producing bloke next door and we went and helped them…..there’s good will, oil and helping someone all rolled into the bargain there……fairly simple stuff.

The second gulf war and Afghanistan were purely for the home audience and based on total bullshit, I think everyone knows that.

I have lived through a few wars now, the falklands probably the first of them and never before the second gulf war and Afghanistan had I ever felt a sense of not being behind the war.

People were behind the lads on the ground, but they knew the government was lying……did the lads in the ground achieve good things themselves when and where they could?…..absolutely, I have no doubt about it.

If a little girl can go to school without being beaten to death with a stick then that has to be a good thing……but unfortunately military men don’t make the rules, we do through the people we elect. 

[SheepChaser 8,083]

5 minutes ago, WILF said:

I think you always have to be careful to separate the political from the military in these conversations.

I also think between the first gulf war and the second & Afghanistan we are talking about totally different conflicts.

The first was a big bully neighbour attacking its smaller oil producing bloke next door and we went and helped them…..there’s good will, oil and helping someone all rolled into the bargain there……fairly simple stuff.

The second gulf war and Afghanistan were purely for the home audience and based on total bullshit, I think everyone knows that.

I have lived through a few wars now, the falklands probably the first of them and never before the second gulf war and Afghanistan had I ever felt a sense of not being behind the war.

People were behind the lads on the ground, but they knew the government was lying……did the lads in the ground achieve good things themselves when and where they could?…..absolutely, I have no doubt about it.

If a little girl can go to school without being beaten to death with a stick then that has to be a good thing……but unfortunately military men don’t make the rules, we do through the people we elect. 

If you speak to most of the lads on the ground who were in Afghan and Iraq and who had half a brain, they would tell you they achieved very very little. Iraq in particular, we took a fairly modern country, and f*cked it into ground, whilst killing loads of civilians, and creating daesh. As sadam said, to might think I’m a monster, but sometimes you need a monster to protect you from things far far scarier. 
 

re little girls going to school in Afghan. There were under ground schools. Kids did go. But now that building would be rubble, the person who taught them dead and the little girl also likely dead or at least gone through hell. To be back where she was without losing twenty years of her life to war. 

[Born Hunter 17,746]

2 minutes ago, WILF said:

I think you always have to be careful to separate the political from the military in these conversations.

I also think between the first gulf war and the second & Afghanistan we are talking about totally different conflicts.

Look at the history of military action between Vietnam and the Iraq war and I think there was a lot of success. I'm not talking moral justifications and I'm certainly not meaning to sound like a fan/supporter, simply objectively looking at how successful the use of force was in achieving policy. Then come 2001/2003 and that all gets turned on it's head with successive policy failures, either due to action or even lack of action, but equally some smaller scale successes.

I wonder what opinions there are on the factors that affect success and failure....

[WILF 46,492]

4 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

If you speak to most of the lads on the ground who were in Afghan and Iraq and who had half a brain, they would tell you they achieved very very little. Iraq in particular, we took a fairly modern country, and f*cked it into ground, whilst killing loads of civilians, and creating daesh. As sadam said, to might think I’m a monster, but sometimes you need a monster to protect you from things far far scarier. 
 

re little girls going to school in Afghan. There were under ground schools. Kids did go. But now that building would be rubble, the person who taught them dead and the little girl also likely dead or at least gone through hell. To be back where she was without losing twenty years of her life to war. 

I hear you mate, I really do.

Its moving into a whole other conversation really but I have always said we don’t understand these people.

America think everyone wants to be like America and they don’t, these people are tribal and, as has always been the case, the bloke with the biggest stick is in charge…..it works for them, it’s in their nature and their culture.

They want no part of how we live……we are completely different animals.

[.357shooter 1,171]

so what did the world expect when everybody pulled out ?.history has proven that people like them will never stop.should neve have interfered in the first place.only stirred up more hatred for the western world.

[SheepChaser 8,083]

2 minutes ago, WILF said:

I hear you mate, I really do.

Its moving into a whole other conversation really but I have always said we don’t understand these people.

America think everyone wants to be like America and they don’t, these people are tribal and, as has always been the case, the bloke with the biggest stick is in charge…..it works for them, it’s in their nature and their culture.

They want no part of how we live……we are completely different animals.

To be fair mate most of the young Iraqis I know loved America and American culture, they had their own version of McDonald’s, they had heavy metal bands and all of the other stuff. If you visited Iraq before the war it was quite a nice and modern country. It was clean and functioned well. We went over and f*cked them back to the dark ages. Afghan is a somewhat different beast but they aren’t backwards cave dwellers...... we pushed their country back hard. What they don’t like, understandably is us going in and destroying their country, knackering their infrastructure, closing everything that runs, killing lots of them and then expecting a thank you for improving nothing at all and the constant fear they we will pull out and dump them in a bigger mess than when I started with the same folk in charge but a f*cked country ...... and that’s what we have done! 

[WILF 46,492]

3 minutes ago, Born Hunter said:

Look at the history of military action between Vietnam and the Iraq war and I think there was a lot of success. I'm not talking moral justifications and I'm certainly not meaning to sound like a fan/supporter, simply objectively looking at how successful the use of force was in achieving policy. Then come 2001/2003 and that all gets turned on it's head with successive policy failures, either due to action or even lack of action, but equally some smaller scale successes.

I wonder what opinions there are on the factors that affect success and failure....

I wouldn’t be up on the history of geo-political success or failure that could be attributed to all the military actions since the war mate, I think some thing simply feel “right” and some things don’t.

I believe the military operate within a set of rules and boundaries but they are also at the mercy of public opinion……sometimes we simply don’t have the stomach for it as people.

As I said, it’s a whole other avenue of conversation but the modern way is to think we are all the same and we ain’t…….it would make a soldiers job a lot clean cut if we went to work based on the rules of the people we are fighting but that’s not us.

I personally hold the opinion that people in an Arab village or some African township don’t understand chocolate and a set of school books, they understand a giant great f***ing stick smashed over their head……but, that’s not OUR reality anymore 

[SheepChaser 8,083]

3 minutes ago, WILF said:

I wouldn’t be up on the history of geo-political success or failure that could be attributed to all the military actions since the war mate, I think some thing simply feel “right” and some things don’t.

I believe the military operate within a set of rules and boundaries but they are also at the mercy of public opinion……sometimes we simply don’t have the stomach for it as people.

As I said, it’s a whole other avenue of conversation but the modern way is to think we are all the same and we ain’t…….it would make a soldiers job a lot clean cut if we went to work based on the rules of the people we are fighting but that’s not us.

I personally hold the opinion that people in an Arab village or some African township don’t understand chocolate and a set of school books, they understand a giant great f***ing stick smashed over their head……but, that’s not OUR reality anymore 

Jesus Christ mate your last paragraph - what era do you think we live in kids in an Afghan or African village don’t understand chocolate and school books f**k me where’s your sail ship and horse and cart I take it you haven’t been to Africa or Afghan or places like it  

[WILF 46,492]

7 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

To be fair mate most of the young Iraqis I know loved America and American culture, they had their own version of McDonald’s, they had heavy metal bands and all of the other stuff. If you visited Iraq before the war it was quite a nice and modern country. It was clean and functioned well. We went over and f*cked them back to the dark ages. Afghan is a somewhat different beast but they aren’t backwards cave dwellers...... we pushed their country back hard. What they don’t like, understandably is us going in and destroying their country, knackering their infrastructure, closing everything that runs, killing lots of them and then expecting a thank you for improving nothing at all and the constant fear they we will pull out and dump them in a bigger mess than when I started with the same folk in charge but a f*cked country ...... and that’s what we have done! 

I think in its simplest form mate it comes down to this, they were given an ultimatum to give up Bin Laden and his sympathisers and they chose not to…..so we rinsed the gaff.

I genuinely couldn’t care less if we had wiped every single Afghan off the face of the earth and then moved on and did the same to Pakistan and any other bunch of dirty animals that harboured us ill will.

What grates me is that blokes die and we kiss these peoples arse on home soil !……we have no business with these people and they have no business with us and the sooner we understand that undeniable fact the better.

[WILF 46,492]

8 minutes ago, SheepChaser said:

Jesus Christ mate your last paragraph - what era do you think we live in kids in an Afghan or African village don’t understand chocolate and school books f**k me where’s your sail ship and horse and cart I take it you haven’t been to Africa or Afghan or places like it  

I never said kids…..I said people.

 

[SheepChaser 8,083]

1 minute ago, WILF said:

I think in its simplest form mate it comes down to this, they were given an ultimatum to give up Bin Laden and his sympathisers and they chose not to…..so we rinsed the gaff.

I genuinely couldn’t care less if we had wiped every single Afghan off the face of the earth and then moved on and did the same to Pakistan and any other bunch of dirty animals that harboured us ill will.

What grates me is that blokes die and we kiss these peoples arse on home soil !……we have no business with these people and they have no business with us and the sooner we understand that undeniable fact the better.

No offence but that’s a totally different conversation and sadly lacks any understanding of world politics and economics. But I get what you’re saying and why you’re saying it. 
 

My point is these countries are not backwards hell holes full of western hating yokels ...... well not until we go and ‘save’ them by invading them and f*cking their country and expecting to be treated as hero’s for doing so  

[THE STIFFMEISTER 15,580]

1 hour ago, SheepChaser said:

What a surprise. The w*nker world police invaded a country, fought a war, destroyed the place, killed a load of people and did no good whatsoever and then left it worse than it was.

Good work guys good work.

I cannot believe anyone is really dumb enough to think we went in with good intentions and were ever going to do any good. 

I believe we did  . 
 

we went there to drag those c**ts into the light of day and succeeded in doing so .

the fact that the rise of the taliban can be seen as the true face of Islam as those wielding Kalashnikovs now will be the school kids that we waved at and played football with in the mid to late 2000s should have a nerve with anyone who says immigration is good for a country . 
 

they stood and smiled and took the money to rebuild and were happy to pick up the arms again under the black flag of isis once it suited them . You can’t change these people . And we should stay away from them . 

[WILF 46,492]

1 minute ago, SheepChaser said:

No offence but that’s a totally different conversation and sadly lacks any understanding of world politics and economics. But I get what you’re saying and why you’re saying it. 
 

My point is these countries are not backwards hell holes full of western hating yokels ...... well not until we go and ‘save’ them by invading them and f*cking their country and expecting to be treated as hero’s for doing so  

None taken old chap.

I couldn’t give two shits about world politics or world economics…..that’s what gets us into these situations which is, I believe, where you came in mate.