Variation

[Meece 1,957]

On 15/10/2020 at 18:30, goldfinger said:

A few weeks ago I put in a centerfire variation  for a 243 I already had 22.250 on my ticket but decided to hold back and find some land with deer on that the farmer wanted controlling hoping to be able to get a 243 that covered me for everything and only buy one rifle,the land was inspected and passed in part for the caliber, the Fao phoned telling that they were refusing the variation on the grounds only that  I had no experience of shooting deer, this was there only reason,they told me to re-apply after I had  some stalking experience, is this a legal requirement and can they insist on this before granting.previously I had told them that I had done a hell of alot research on this subject and was a very confident of humanely dispatching a deer, also that I had a lot of years in the army shooting similar and bigger calibres and new with confidence how centerfire rounds behave,I felt very insulted that they though I needed this experience,all my life I have been involved in some sort of vermin control and believe me that's a lot of years.

Well, 24 hours and more has passed without comment from anyone.  What does this indicate.?  .... no one has any opinion. ?  No one gives a flying f**k.? .... people are taking their time to collect their thoughts and opinions.? Hmm.  My opinion is that the whole firearms thing is a complete shambles from top to bottom. Shooters apply for stuff that they will never use.  Plod haven't got a clue about their job or which end is the pointy bit and make it up as they go along and the orgs are just a useless self serving thing.  Still you did get a reply.....  And you do get four (is it.?) Mags for your money and shooting insurance (which you can get for 30 quid from ccc3... And others). Right... a few weeks ago I was in conversation with a foe and he did say that they wouldn't give a 243 to a first time applicant but if you've got 22lr your not. I can't see that there is a massive difference in lethality between a 22.250 and a 243. Same parent case different bullet. The way I see this is that plod is sort of varying the mentoring thing that was the thing they had going a couple of years ago. That was a load of nonsense and so is this....  the options... supply valid reasons for the issue.....  Get a 22.250  Wait and re apply for a 243 later. Go on a course, but that ain't no guarantee.   Get someone to vouch that you have got experience but that could mean that plod conditions that the (mentor) has to be with you when you use the rifle.!!.... I  had this when I vouched for one of the son in laws about three years ago.  They said ok you can have the gun;  but he has to be accompanied by me when he uses it. The time wasn't specified so in theory it was for the five years.!! OR more ,!!! Still you did get a reply for your 100 quid  membership. ... unless basic are going to fight your corner for you and sort it out .?   ( did I  just  see a pig go flying past on a  carpet)  ( no I think that it was the man in the  moon ). Please let us know how this pans out and what you do next.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Meece

[goldfinger 135]

Will do Meece and thank you for your opinion, I nearly bought the 22.250 today but resisted for the moment, i'm going to email FAO on monday asking them what exactly I have to do to satisfy there requirements for me to own and shoot 243 before I make my mind up whether or not to give up and buy the 22.250, there is a few people that I know that are willing to take me along with there rifle for the experience, unfortunately the FAO didn't say how much experience I need before I'm let loose on my own,I cannot come to terms with there demands but suppose I will have to, very frustrating though when they give me on an open any rifle up to 233.   

[Baldcoot 2,352]

Did Dsc1 first, as although ex army started shooting aged 13 .303 Lee Enfield. Fired 9mm ,7.62 ,.50 cal ,etc before putting my application in.

Doesn't matter what our legal rights are the Feo interpret the home office guidance as they see it.

If you had asked for .243 for foxes,vermin and AOLQ you might not had it rejected. Straight to Deer Doesn't sit well with certain forces as you found out.

Good luck with your new application and keep smiling tomorrow is a better day atb

[Meece 1,957]

1 hour ago, goldfinger said:

i'm going to email FAO on monday asking them what exactly I have to do to satisfy there requirements for me to own and shoot 243 before I make my mind up whether or not to give up and buy the 22.250

 

there is a few people that I know that are willing to take me along with there rifle for the experience,

 

unfortunately the FAO didn't say how much experience I need before I'm let loose on my own,I cannot come to terms with there demands but suppose I will have to, very frustrating though when they give me on an open any rifle up to 233.   

When you apply for a calibre you have to have need and reason.  If you give up and don't  give a reason to have a deer calibre rifle, then you ain't  got the need.  In nearly all cases it ain't essential.   You can go to supermarket for meat.  You have to have a nèed to control as vermin or agricultural damage. ( in their eyes ).

Quote...there is a few people that I know that are willing to take me along with there rifle for the experience,

If you say that they will say come back next year when you have done this and can prove your experience.  Get these blokes to put in writing that you HAVE been out with them ( which I'm  sure that you have) and that you have the required experience regarding backstops and shot selection ect with 243 or larger.

Consider every move that you make and 'reverse  the thought pattern as if you were them and handing out certs to a new shooter.  They don't look on using guns in the army in a good light.  Perhaps it is because the persons that were being trained to use these guns in a controled agressive way to shoot and kill people. Goodness only knows what plods criteria are because they make it up as they go along. And basic don't challenge them at all.  Membership money for old rope.

Edited October 17, 2020 by Meece

[goldfinger 135]

Lets start from early this year on my renewal, "Ok" I put in for centre fire Fox 243, the FEO said that I cannot put 243 for fox its a deer calibre, so then I requested 22.250 which they granted, before I had the money to purchase the 22.250 a farmer asked me to control Deer that were starting to show more often on his land were he had given me permission to shoot over so I decided to hold fire and only purchase one gun, (one more gun is all that I can afford) that did all the jobs in case I was asked by anyone else, I then put in the variation 243 for Fox and Deer, the rest I have explained.

The FOA returned my licence but with no accompanying letter setting out the reason for refusal and what I needed to do to meet there demands,to be fair to the FAO they did phone me whilst I was at work but I was very busy at the time and didn't have much time to absorb or ask the right questions. 

Now I am going to email the FOA and try and get them to be more detailed into how much experience I need to gain from someone taking me out with the appropriate calibre,(how long,how many sessions, what form of evidence they require, and then will I be able to shoot this calibre on my own afterwords.

 

[Meece 1,957]

1 hour ago, goldfinger said:

Now I am going to email the FOA and try and get them to be more detailed into how much experience I need to gain from someone taking me out with the appropriate calibre,(how long,how many sessions, what form of evidence they require, and then will I be able to shoot this calibre on my own afterwords.

 

If you do that then you are dancing to their tune. And even if you do this, they probably won't issue anyway.  I would go see your farmer and explain that they wont give you one for fox and only for dèer.  Ask him to write a letter explaining that he has deer damage to his crops / agriculture and that he had requested you as a firearms hiolder to CONTROL the probĺem. Then contact the feo or better still contact the department direct if you can. That bypasses a specific Firearms enquiry officer (Feo).  BUT isn't  this what basic should be doing. What are you paying nearly 100 quid out for.? 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Meece

[goldfinger 135]

The farmer has explained all that to them.

[Alsone 789]

On 16/10/2020 at 08:27, Stavross said:

I hope they sort it out for you as this is the type of thing BASC was set up for, not the nonsense they involve themselves in now

TBH the nonsense they're involving themsleves in is exactly what they should have been doing for years - fighting to save our sport / pest control / addressing politicians not hiding away hoping no-one would notice us. I agree though dropping firearmes licensing cover was a mistake. The only reason I'd ever join BASC would be for licensing cover. They could have self insured rather than spent money paying insurance policies from insurers who are always raising fees. The membership fee also became excessive in my opinion.

On 16/10/2020 at 19:55, Dervburner said:

Good advice, I know someone who took DSC and then was granted 30-06 with no previous experience in deer stalking

I know 2 people who'd never picked up a firearm in their lives, and were granted a .243 and a .308 respectively on the back of paid stalking in Scotland (albeit paid stalking is effectively mentored). They were rifle club members though and applied for and were granted .22 lr's at the same time. It's possible their provisional range membership carried some weight on safety.

On 18/10/2020 at 08:22, goldfinger said:

Lets start from early this year on my renewal, "Ok" I put in for centre fire Fox 243, the FEO said that I cannot put 243 for fox its a deer calibre, so then I requested 22.250 which they granted, before I had the money to purchase the 22.250 a farmer asked me to control Deer that were starting to show more often on his land were he had given me permission to shoot over so I decided to hold fire and only purchase one gun, (one more gun is all that I can afford) that did all the jobs in case I was asked by anyone else, I then put in the variation 243 for Fox and Deer, the rest I have explained.

The FOA returned my licence but with no accompanying letter setting out the reason for refusal and what I needed to do to meet there demands,to be fair to the FAO they did phone me whilst I was at work but I was very busy at the time and didn't have much time to absorb or ask the right questions. 

Now I am going to email the FOA and try and get them to be more detailed into how much experience I need to gain from someone taking me out with the appropriate calibre,(how long,how many sessions, what form of evidence they require, and then will I be able to shoot this calibre on my own afterwords.

 

Speak to BASC. .243 is NOT a deer exclusive calibre. It's a well established fox calibre for long range fox shooting and is approved as such. It's also recommended for fox in the firearms guidance. As others have said, provided the land has been cleared for .243 there's no reason not to grant it to you if you can show good reason for needing it eg you have a need to shoot fox at long range.

That said, now BASC are no longer offering licensing cover, you're probably stuffed as you probably cannot afford to take the risk of taking the Police to Court. Maybe you will have to stick with .22-250 for a while. That said, .22-250 is a very capable round. I'd choose that or .203 for fox in most circumstances anyway, probably .203 for me. .243 is just more expensive to run unless you need the deer or extreme long range fox capability. I doubt the average person is going to exeed the range capabilities of either former cartridge for fox. BTW stating you want .243 because you only want to buy 1 rifle is NOT good reason. The guidance specifically states this. I rather suspect this may have been your tripping point here.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Alsone

[Stavross 15,316]

You must be thinking of a different BASC to me, I was thinking of the one that when wild justice got the GL pulled they buried their head in the sand and left it to the shooting community to badger their local MP to sort it out or the Canada geese pest controller who was constantly harassed by anti’s while doing his job and when the anti’s got the police involved they revoked his ticket, a fully paid up member of BASC who did nothing to help him and had to get his own solicitor to help him have his ticket reinstated. Is it that BASC you are on about 

[Rabid 1,936]

It’s all bull.

As you already have 22-250 you have passed most of the criteria for holding one, suitability, safety etc etc, the only further requirement to move onto a 243 is ‘good reason’.

there is a short cut, but it’s expensive, join a deer syndicate,  a1 decoy offer one for £750, it gives over 100 000 acres to your disposal for every deer species in the uk, land mostly cleared to 375.

that's all you have to give them, good reason to own said Calibre,  sure they like the mentor idea, they love the dsc paperwork, but none of it is a requirement, all of them will help you though.
 

I would actually say the dsc is an enjoyable course, I did mine with an open mind and really enjoyed it, the tutor was a wealth of information, met some good lads on it that I have actually now been out with, and learnt a lot.

[Alsone 789]

1 hour ago, Stavross said:

You must be thinking of a different BASC to me, I was thinking of the one that when wild justice got the GL pulled they buried their head in the sand and left it to the shooting community to badger their local MP to sort it out or the Canada geese pest controller who was constantly harassed by anti’s while doing his job and when the anti’s got the police involved they revoked his ticket, a fully paid up member of BASC who did nothing to help him and had to get his own solicitor to help him have his ticket reinstated. Is it that BASC you are on about 

If you're on fb and in any way connected to the BASC you'll find they're now quite active. I believe they're challenging WJ in Court, and almost everyday their lobbying MP's / making press statements in support of shooting. Far better position than where shooting effectively tried not to be noticed most of the time.

https://www.(!64.56:886/BASCuk/posts/3396081767092411

Having said that as a positive, for me the withdrawal of the licensing insurance to fund it was the wrong move. They could have self insured to save money.

 

[goldfinger 135]

1 hour ago, Rabid said:

It’s all bull.

As you already have 22-250 you have passed most of the criteria for holding one, suitability, safety etc etc, the only further requirement to move onto a 243 is ‘good reason’.

there is a short cut, but it’s expensive, join a deer syndicate,  a1 decoy offer one for £750, it gives over 100 000 acres to your disposal for every deer species in the uk, land mostly cleared to 375.

that's all you have to give them, good reason to own said Calibre,  sure they like the mentor idea, they love the dsc paperwork, but none of it is a requirement, all of them will help you though.
 

I would actually say the dsc is an enjoyable course, I did mine with an open mind and really enjoyed it, the tutor was a wealth of information, met some good lads on it that I have actually now been out with, and learnt a lot.

That's the part I struggle to come to terms with,(the fact that I have been given centrefire calibre on my ticket) and deemed to be a responsible suitable person, Quote the farmer wants me to control the foxes so the FAO gave me the centre fire up to 233,the farmer wants me to control the deer but FAO won't give me the calibre and suggested I do some deer stalking, then re-apply.  

[Sausagedog 7,381]

A letter to the chief constable informing him of his firearms department impeding  a legal activity which is a contradiction of their duty.

Their role is to prevent danger to the public via legal ownership of firearms by certain people.

It is not their job to prevent a legal activity.

[Gooner 143]

5 hours ago, goldfinger said:

That's the part I struggle to come to terms with,(the fact that I have been given centrefire calibre on my ticket) and deemed to be a responsible suitable person, Quote the farmer wants me to control the foxes so the FAO gave me the centre fire up to 233,the farmer wants me to control the deer but FAO won't give me the calibre and suggested I do some deer stalking, then re-apply.  

I had exactly the same happen to me, was granted a .223 but told that I would need to get a mentor to vouch for me if I wanted .243 for deer. A really strange carry on I wonder if it is something the FAO are told to do by others above

[Sausagedog 7,381]

Yes because a 223 cant reap half as much havoc a 243 can!

For me this goes all the way back to the handgun ban. Loads of hand gunners suddenly wanted to go stalking so deer calibre were handed out like toffees licence wise.

Most of them tried it and found out it involved sweating alot or freezing your hands off so gave up. Plod soon realized they had granted licenses with what amounted to not very much of a good reason!

Plod doesn't do egg on his face, others have to pay for it!