Rewilding. Is it me?

[Nicepix 5,650]

3 minutes ago, sandymere said:

 interesting. 

https://www.adventurecreators.com/brown-bear-pyrenees/#:~:text=The reintroduction of brown bears in the Pyrenees&text=Three healthy brown bears from,of native Pyrenean brown bears.

Written by an organisation that promotes "See the Bears" tours.

Note the point about generous compensation is given to farmers IF they can prove the loss was caused by a bear. So they get nothing for those lost without trace as a result of bear attacks.

[sandymere 8,263]

why can people live with bears in one part of Spain but not another? 

http://wildsideholidays.co.uk/cantabrian-brown-bear-ursus-arctos-oso-pardo-cantabrico/

 

 

[Nicepix 5,650]

Just now, Tyla said:

You really are coming across as an arrogant old so and so. I've explained myself pretty clearly and been pleasant to you throughout but you either can't or won't accept anything that isn't in line with your very narrow view of the world. 

You have no idea what I do or do not know. Your mind was made up before you started this thread and you just wanted a round of applause for your opinion. If i'd realised that to start with I wouldn't have wasted my time discussing it with you.

You stated your opinion along with a "I don't want to discuss it further" rider. And you have continually stated that you don't know the facts about this situation but you think that you are right anyway. That smacks of arrogance to me.

And that is before we get to your position of; "Bears belong in this environment because of their historical right" but for some reason that very same argument doesn't apply to UK and the wolves.

At least I have provided facts and links to support my views. And you?

[sandymere 8,263]

3 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

Written by an organisation that promotes "See the Bears" tours.

Note the point about generous compensation is given to farmers IF they can prove the loss was caused by a bear. So they get nothing for those lost without trace as a result of bear attacks.

There's an ever decreasing profit in sheep, which are subsidised,  but a growing one in wildlife, so is it cheaper to subsidise a few bears or a few thousands of sheep? would be interesting to know the figures for sheep subsidies etc.

[Nicepix 5,650]

3 minutes ago, sandymere said:

why can people live with bears in one part of Spain but not another? 

http://wildsideholidays.co.uk/cantabrian-brown-bear-ursus-arctos-oso-pardo-cantabrico/

 

 

Another "Come and see the bears" organisation. They don't have to pick up the pieces. They come, look and walk away.

[Greyman 28,440]

13 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

Who pays for the livestock protection - the farmers? The government suggest farmers use dogs. Why should they pay for dogs to protect sheep that didn't need protecting until the Government started playing God? And the dogs are only needed in the warmer months so that doubles their effective running costs as they have to be fed during the cold season.

Not a lot of boars in the mountains. They are a lowland species and as has been shown in other areas, bears and wolves take the easiest option. Boar or sheep? I know which I would prefer to pick a fight with.

I know one of the conditions of the lynx re introduction was an insurance policy to cover farmers for any losses they caused, would imagine they would have to have a simular scheme running before just turning bears loose

[Nicepix 5,650]

4 minutes ago, sandymere said:

There's an ever decreasing profit in sheep, which are subsidised,  but a growing one in wildlife, so is it cheaper to subsidise a few bears or a few thousands of sheep? would be interesting to know the figures for sheep subsidies etc.

Not as much as you would think: http://naturerising.ie/economics-of-nature-rising/

[Tyla 3,179]

4 minutes ago, Nicepix said:

You stated your opinion along with a "I don't want to discuss it further" rider. And you have continually stated that you don't know the facts about this situation but you think that you are right anyway. That smacks of arrogance to me.

And that is before we get to your position of; "Bears belong in this environment because of their historical right" but for some reason that very same argument doesn't apply to UK and the wolves.

At least I have provided facts and links to support my views. And you?

Right. One last time I will explain my opinions to you.

I am in favour of rewilded, or to be less controversial, wilderness areas. Most of the planet is taken up by people but in some places the habitat has not irreversibly changed so much that having a wilderness comparible with what used to be there is possible. (This is the bit you have been struggling with, the difference between the UK and the Pyrenees)

In places where that is the case, I believe the Pyrenees to be one of them, I think it would be good for the world in general to keep or encourage the species that made up the ecosystem in the not so distant past. This is not necessarily an instant fix but something to aim for.

This is my opinion and I do, whether you like it or not, have a reasonable amount of knowledge to base it on. 

It isn't the same as yours and I'm happy to discuss it, in fact I quite enjoy it, but I won't be brow beaten by you just repeating the same things you believe again and again and then getting angry that I don't agree with you.

[Greyman 28,440]

They don’t seem that bad

 

[Nicepix 5,650]

16 minutes ago, Tyla said:

Right. One last time I will explain my opinions to you.

I am in favour of rewilded, or to be less controversial, wilderness areas. Most of the planet is taken up by people but in some places the habitat has not irreversibly changed so much that having a wilderness comparible with what used to be there is possible. (This is the bit you have been struggling with, the difference between the UK and the Pyrenees)

In places where that is the case, I believe the Pyrenees to be one of them, I think it would be good for the world in general to keep or encourage the species that made up the ecosystem in the not so distant past. This is not necessarily an instant fix but something to aim for.

This is my opinion and I do, whether you like it or not, have a reasonable amount of knowledge to base it on. 

It isn't the same as yours and I'm happy to discuss it, in fact I quite enjoy it, but I won't be brow beaten by you just repeating the same things you believe again and again and then getting angry that I don't agree with you.

Any struggling seems to be that you cannot see or comprehend the position of re-introducing a predator into an environment whereby its only natural prey are so scarce as to be endangered species requiring protection. That is not sustainable or logical.

You said: " I would say that because they (the bears) have been there for millenia is a fairly valid reason (for their re-introduction)."  I can show evidence of wolves having inhabited the UK for the same millennia. The Pyrenan environment cannot sustain bears in the same way that the UK cannot sustain wolves. Times change and we have to accept that in some cases the page has already been turned and at the moment we cannot go back. That is not to say that we can never go back. If sheep farming in that region declined to nothing and the other species grew in numbers then I would predict a natural return would be possible. 

Then you say: " If that inconveniences farmers or forces them to change their management in those small areas I'm OK with that. " But it isn't you that has to live with the financial and welfare implications.

If you have any knowledge of this particular situation then you have certainly kept it quiet.

[Tyla 3,179]

1 hour ago, Nicepix said:

Any struggling seems to be that you cannot see or comprehend the position of re-introducing a predator into an environment whereby its only natural prey are so scarce as to be endangered species requiring protection. That is not sustainable or logical.

You said: " I would say that because they (the bears) have been there for millenia is a fairly valid reason (for their re-introduction)."  I can show evidence of wolves having inhabited the UK for the same millennia. The Pyrenan environment cannot sustain bears in the same way that the UK cannot sustain wolves. Times change and we have to accept that in some cases the page has already been turned and at the moment we cannot go back. That is not to say that we can never go back. If sheep farming in that region declined to nothing and the other species grew in numbers then I would predict a natural return would be possible. 

Then you say: " If that inconveniences farmers or forces them to change their management in those small areas I'm OK with that. " But it isn't you that has to live with the financial and welfare implications.

If you have any knowledge of this particular situation then you have certainly kept it quiet.

I wouldnt say you were showing yourself to be any genius either mate. I cant be bothered to type you another long reply, you aren't interested in anything I've said anyway.

Enjoy your evening, its not as if either of our opinions are going to change the world anyway

[dogmad riley 1,344]

We share this planet we don't own it. 

[Bobtheferret 1,248]

23 hours ago, Greyman said:

We have a lot of species that possibly started with less even the humble squirrel so maybe just by volume if it’s a rapid breeding animal it can cope with a certain percentage of loss through inbreeding, interesting  

I believe that the Australian rabbit tsunami started with a mere 24 animals...and we all know how that ended! 

[Nicepix 5,650]

19 hours ago, dogmad riley said:

We share this planet we don't own it. 

That is a noble sentiment, but we have a duty to manage it seeing as we have caused most of the disruption to other creatures. We are all to blame. Houses, roads, farm foods, etc. all impact on the countryside and other species. Sometimes these schemes are genuine in their intentions and other times it is a bit of ego massaging or personal interests. The problem is that it is often harder to undo a failed scheme than set it up in the first place.

[lurcherman 887 13,142]

That’s a Mechanical bear