Rewilding. Is it me?

[Nicepix 5,650]

We have just been down to the Pyrenees for our holiday. While up in't mountains we couldn't walk the dog on some of the hiking trails to protect the vulnerable species such as marmots, ibex and mouflons as well as the many small flocks of sheep that are allowed to roam free on the upland pastures. Fair enough. There are plenty of irresponsible dog owners who could cause problems for these rare animals. However, when you consider that the same Government who are protecting these animals are also actively protecting wolf numbers and re-introducing brown bears. As you would imagine the mountain shepherds aren't best chuffed as are many of the residents of local villages. In the last 30 years the number of wolves in the French Pyrenees has gone up from none to over 60 and it is illegal to kill one unless the authorities are in agreement. 

In the same time scale bears have escalated in numbers after the authorities imported 3 from Slovenia and released them in high pastures near to Ariège. In 2006 they planned to release another 15 but no one was prepared for the throng of angry people that descended on the mountain settlement. They gathered outside the town hall in the hundreds and smashed everything they could. They lit fires, threw red paint and blood on to walls and shouted death threats at Arcangeli. It took eighty gendarmes to restore order. Even today there are large numbers of "Non aux ours" (no to all bears) graffiti on the walls near to mountain roads.

Needless to say, the government promptly reviewed its proposed policies of releasing fifteen bears over the next three years. Instead they decided to halt the programme in order to monitor the population, which was by now between twenty and thirty bears, and let nature take its course. Now there are over 40 of them and the compensation claims for loss of sheep to these predators runs to €3million per year. Recently a shepherd lost over 30 sheep in one incident where a bear or bears panicked the flock into falling over a cliff. And shepherds do not receive compensation for lambs aborted or loss of condition of their flocks caused by the bear's presence.

The French Government has proposed that the shepherds need to change their ways and instead of allowing flocks to graze freely in the upland pastures as they have done for thousands of years, they should fence them in using electric fences. They advocate that shepherds use guard dogs such as the Pyrean Mountain Dog to protect their flocks. These dogs have fallen out of favour since the eradication of wolves many years ago and were anyway, never designed to tackle bears. Apart from the lunacy of shepherds having to change their way of life to accommodate a species that doesn't have to be there, it also leaves the aspect of the rare and vulnerable ibex and mouflon filling the void in the bear's protein needs.  Possibly the Pyrean Mountain Dog might find its way into the bear's diet? 

I could understand the re-wilding of ibex, mouflon and the projects to increase salmon numbers as these are benign species. But how can anybody justify the introduction of species that are a detriment to the inhabitants?

 

 

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

What worries me about any rewilding in this country is that they will just use it to further distance us from nature, they won't allow any hunting by Humans for a start which automatically guarantees it won't be a truly wild environment and they will restrict our access in the areas i.e only go to designated viewing spots etc. It'll be £10 for some national trust carpark and I just hate all that shit, I'm dead against any rewilding in the principle that anyone allowed to be involved will be total fuckwits

Edited September 21, 2020 by JDHUNTING

[terryd 8,422]

Well put jd take the country side back 30 years and there was a hell of a lot more wildlife at least around here

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

13 minutes ago, terryd said:

Well put jd take the country side back 30 years and there was a hell of a lot more wildlife at least around here

There's a small forest round here that always held red squirrels, NT took over and car parking charges etc within a couple of years no red squirrels left .

 

They used to try and charge me for using a "slip" in the lakes that was just a natural slope into the natural glacial lake and for parking on a patch of dirt, I never paid once in ten years he just got told to f**k off whenever he came over.wankers I can't stand them.

Also can't stand the idea of a country that wants to Introduce a predator that could hunt humans and yet removes our right to carry a weapon to protect ourselves against it, that is completely unnatural for humans.

Edited September 21, 2020 by JDHUNTING

[Nicepix 5,650]

There needs to be some over view and coordination rather than the free for all of small interested parties shouting loudly and getting their own way. There are enough feck-wits unilaterally and illegally  introducing or "re-homing' animals and fish for their own benefit without having small pressure groups being allowed to do whatever they want.

About ten years ago some group decided to release otters on a small river in Nth Yorkshire. The land owner who agreed only had a small plot and the otters spread into areas where anglers were paying good money to re-stock it annually with trout. When there was a public enquiry about the situation one of the pro-otter group stood up and stated authoritatively that otters only ate eels!  There weren't any eels in that river, only the trout and some endangered white tailed crayfish. And in any case, eels are a protected species.

The decisions being made about the French bears are made 800 kms away in Paris by former bankers and lawyers turned politicians.

[Tyla 3,179]

I wont be popular but I don't agree at all.

People co existed, competed and hunted these these species for millenia before technology and increasing population made them extinct. 

Is it so bad that they are coming back? The numbers you are taking about are tiny, 60 wolves in the whole French pyrenees?

Shepherds were sucessfully shepherding sheep there for 1000's of years alongside much higher populations. Livestock management was probably different, livestock guardian dogs were probably a huge part of that. If you look at their use in Namibia guardian dogs reduced cheetah predation by 90% and reduced leopard predation but i can't remember by how much. That reduced pastoralist and predator conflict and allowed both to continue.

From a financial stand point I would expect that the income from wildlife tourism, including big game hunting, is considerably more than could be earnt from subsistence grazing livestock. Have a google of Ivan Carter, he is an interesting guy. A conservationist first and foremost but a realist. He can see the value in wildlife through hunting which allows the continuance of both. i would think that should be quite popular on here.

Otters is the UK is another one. Anyone would think that fish and otters hadn't coexisted before. There were both fish and otters for much longer than there have been fish and no otters.

I personally think, as a species, we have most of the space and resources already. Is it so bad that we allow some of the other species to come back a little bit?

 

[Bobtheferret 1,248]

15 minutes ago, Tyla said:

I wont be popular but I don't agree at all.

People co existed, competed and hunted these these species for millenia before technology and increasing population made them extinct. 

Is it so bad that they are coming back? The numbers you are taking about are tiny, 60 wolves in the whole French pyrenees?

Shepherds were sucessfully shepherding sheep there for 1000's of years alongside much higher populations. Livestock management was probably different, livestock guardian dogs were probably a huge part of that. If you look at their use in Namibia guardian dogs reduced cheetah predation by 90% and reduced leopard predation but i can't remember by how much. That reduced pastoralist and predator conflict and allowed both to continue.

From a financial stand point I would expect that the income from wildlife tourism, including big game hunting, is considerably more than could be earnt from subsistence grazing livestock. Have a google of Ivan Carter, he is an interesting guy. A conservationist first and foremost but a realist. He can see the value in wildlife through hunting which allows the continuance of both. i would think that should be quite popular on here.

Otters is the UK is another one. Anyone would think that fish and otters hadn't coexisted before. There were both fish and otters for much longer than there have been fish and no otters.

I personally think, as a species, we have most of the space and resources already. Is it so bad that we allow some of the other species to come back a little bit?

 

Spot on. Regarding predation on sheep you need to break the cycle and the bears /wolves will then find other food sources. The older shepherds obviously lost some sheep but nothing unmanageable with use of dogs etc. Make the sheep hard to catch and the predators will turn to other prey and then nature will take over, to many wolves not enough ibex wolf population falls lots of ibex wolves increase and so on as had happened for 1000’s of years. We have pretty much everything as species we can learn to live with other species.  

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

But to be honest I don't really care about them eating sheep, sheep are worth what to a farmer? £60 I don't know could pay the farmer for losses through taxes. My problem will be the management of humans to accommodate some half tame animals. Oh and livestock guardians? Ok I'm sure having massive protective dogs roaming round fields will work in UK with no problems, they'll either be nicked or farmer up on manslaughter charges when it grabs some 70 year old rambler. Humans are nature we killed all the bears and wolves with bow and arrows not rifles. They're gone for a reason it's not re-wilding it's more pretending we ain't part of nature. If they were released and you could hunt them with archaic methods ie bows,  dogs spears etc then fair enough as they'll be thin on the ground and scared of the real top predator i.e us. Anything like this comes down to management and I wouldn't trust a western gov to manage a release of butterflies forget 800lb bears. With no weapons We'll be the first humans for 1 million years or something not to be the top predator. Progress eh

Edited September 21, 2020 by JDHUNTING

[Tyla 3,179]

7 minutes ago, JDHUNTING said:

But to be honest I don't really care about them eating sheep, sheep are worth what to a farmer? £60 I don't know could pay the farmer for losses through taxes. My problem will be the management of humans to accommodate some half tame animals. Oh and livestock guardians? Ok I'm sure having massive protective dogs roaming round fields will work in UK with no problems, they'll either be nicked or farmer up on manslaughter charges when it grabs some 70 year old rambler. Humans are nature we killed all the bears and wolves with bow and arrows not rifles. They're gone for a reason it's not re-wilding it's more pretending we ain't part of nature. If they were released and you could hunt them with archaic methods ie bows,  dogs spears etc then fair enough as they'll be thin on the ground and scared of the real top predator i.e us. Anything like this comes down to management and I wouldn't trust a western gov to manage a release of butterflies forget 800lb bears. With no weapons We'll be the first humans for 1 million years or something not to be the top predator. Progress eh

Not really sure why you'd be using guardian dogs in the UK when the wolves are in the pyrenees?

 

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

1 minute ago, Tyla said:

Not really sure why you'd be using guardian dogs in the UK when the wolves are in the pyrenees?

 

I'm talking about rewilding in the UK, I don't have an opinion about the pyranees as I'm not french they can re-introduce velociraptors there as far as I'm concerned

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

And to say we coexisted with them for millennia is rubnish to be honest, when we hunted bears to extinction in UK it was with dogs and bows nothing we haven't had for millennia, the population then for the whole of the UK was about 2 million the same as one city now. People moved into an area in numbers and killed the other apex predators if that's not nature I don't know what is.

[Tyla 3,179]

9 minutes ago, JDHUNTING said:

And to say we coexisted with them for millennia is rubnish to be honest, when we hunted bears to extinction in UK it was with dogs and bows nothing we haven't had for millennia, the population then for the whole of the UK was about 2 million the same as one city now. People moved into an area in numbers and killed the other apex predators if that's not nature I don't know what is.

To my knowledge the last wolf in the uk was killed less than 300 years ago. We've been here a lot longer than that.

I do agree though that population and space are key. We just don't have the unpopulated space here for large predators, mores the pity, but other countries have a lot more wilderness and enough room and prey to sustain them. That is what the original post was about.

We will have to make do with otters and maybe beavers spreading about. No doubt there will be plenty of fuss made about that anyway.

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

Fair enough and I'm not looking for an argument but if your down to your last wolf or pack then the jobs already f****d. It was in the Highlands I think so yeah people and apex predators don't mix well

[neil82 1,080]

my wish is for all who shout out for rewilding to do their bit and stick either their bollocks or their ovaries into a jar first, this country has too many people in it to even start to think we can go back to how things used to be (and a stupid point is, most who want this will also have no problem with the invasion that`s happening in the channel, figure that one out)

[Tyla 3,179]

4 hours ago, neil82 said:

my wish is for all who shout out for rewilding to do their bit and stick either their bollocks or their ovaries into a jar first, this country has too many people in it to even start to think we can go back to how things used to be (and a stupid point is, most who want this will also have no problem with the invasion that`s happening in the channel, figure that one out)

I repeat, this post was about the French pyrenees NOT the uk. At no point have I suggested reintroducing wolves to the uk.

I agree entirely that we are over populated and have no desire to see that problem increased by us taking on the dregs of the rest of the planet.

That doesn't change my opinion that there are benefits to rewilding. This entire country is covered in houses and farmed land, almost nowhere else is like that, most countries still have large wild spaces. Are you really telling me that we, as a species, are so greedy that we have to have every little bit for ourselves?

No one is suggesting that we revert everywhere to how it was, that would be impossible, but I believe we ought to share