General election - who to vote for ?

[sandymere 8,263]

As to pensions, tories will have you working until your 75......

[WILF 47,625]

5 minutes ago, sandymere said:

Lots still going on about how bad the NHS is but, we spend less than many EU countries with similar systems and much less than the USA, which in spite of the cost has a massive amount of people who do not have health insurance so are pretty much in the shite. 

https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2019/07/how-does-the-us-healthcare-system-compare-to-other-countries

We should put more in to bring us in line with our better performing neighbours to get a better performing system. 

 

 

Genuine question:

Do you think it really is as simple as just chucking more money at the job or do you think it’s a multi faceted problem, money being only part of the equation ? 

[WILF 47,625]

16 hours ago, jukel123 said:

When I read up on Libertarianism I found out that it was initially a leftie philosophy but it has now been adopted by the  far  right!  The extreme left and far right tend to have views which  eventually coincide. Neither for me. I'm voting Labour on the basis that I can't remember a single tory policy which has done any good for us. People cite the selling of council houses but all that has done is create  thousands more private landlords and screwed the younger generation.

The unions and Labour, for the last one  hundred years have created all the steps forward for ordinary people, the tories have tried (successfully in the last ten years of austerity) to claim all the progress back whilst punishing the poor, the sick and the low paid. The bankers who created the problem are laughing as usual.

Brexit is going to cause untold  serious shit in Ireland and Scotland. The tories will probably win, but because of our first past the post system the majority of punters who voted for non tory parties will have no say in government. I can see trouble ahead.

I was fast asleep Wilf and now you've stirred up a hornet's nest.

 

True libertarianism isn’t left or right.....it’s just allowing people freedom, that’s it.

 

[sandymere 8,263]

43 minutes ago, WILF said:

Genuine question:

Do you think it really is as simple as just chucking more money at the job or do you think it’s a multi faceted problem, money being only part of the equation ? 

Health is not simple and we need to work more on prevention but in general health cost money and if you want a decent system it needs funding, I've seen the slow deterioration of the service from the inside to the point that money is featuring to large in decisions on peoples lives. Of course it needs to be a factor but I feel it should not always be the main one.

The USA is the one outlier to the general trend  of better funding = better health, in a negative way, but that is due to profit being taken as a higher percentage than most 1st world countries. Basically the USA pays a lot for a poor system for all but the well off and even those suffer if having longer term conditions unless they are very well off.

edit to add.

 

We should be spending nearer to Germany etc and in doing so would likely not be having this conversation.

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by sandymere

[WILF 47,625]

It would be really interesting to see a break down of where the NHS money go’s.

I wonder what percentage actually gets to front line staff, what’s is essential admin and what is just utter nonsense.

Also, like most nationalised industry the culture seems to be wrong and moral always seems to be low.

And this is the crux, is such a massive institution just too big and heavy to change?........because in its current form it’s unsustainable, it will eventually run out of other people’s money or huge swathes will have to be privatised......neither of which anyone seems to want and, like most things, the poorest would bare the brunt.

Hard truths need to be addressed but I just don’t think the culture surrounding the NHS will allow them to be addressed.......it will complain itself all the way to its own demise.

jmho of course

[keepdiggin 9,561]

out of curiosity would people prefer a lift on all hunting and no control of immigration or no hunting (instant 5 yr jail) and a block on anymore immigrants beinging allowed in?   

[WILF 47,625]

20 minutes ago, keepdiggin said:

out of curiosity would people prefer a lift on all hunting and no control of immigration or no hunting (instant 5 yr jail) and a block on anymore immigrants beinging allowed in?   

Immigration.......blood comes first.

edited to add: A strong United people who share common bonds of ancestry and an attachment to the ground beneath their feet will over turn any law and claim their freedoms by right.

A mongralised rabble, who share no common bond, where life is every man for himself will be controlled forever.....they are easy to deal with.
Jmho of course

Edited November 21, 2019 by WILF

[sandymere 8,263]

"It would be really interesting to see a break down of where the NHS money go’s.

I wonder what percentage actually gets to front line staff, what’s is essential admin and what is just utter nonsense."

The results re funding and outcomes in comparison to other countries seem to suggest that the system works as well as most and a lot better than the private US system where a large proportion goes to profit.

"Also, like most nationalised industry the culture seems to be wrong and moral always seems to be low."

It is low at the moment because we face daily battles for our patients, it was a lot better 12, 13 years ago  and would be again if we had similar funding to similar EU countries.

"And this is the crux, is such a massive institution just too big and heavy to change?........because in its current form it’s unsustainable, it will eventually run out of other people’s money or huge swathes will have to be privatised......neither of which anyone seems to want and, like most things, the poorest would bare the brunt."

All health care systems are large, there's a lot of people and one of the main reason we get away with poor funding is because the NHS is big enough to negaotiate well, just look at what the smaller US companies pay for drugs.

https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/us-most-expensive-drugs-uk-prices/

"Hard truths need to be addressed but I just don’t think the culture surrounding the NHS will allow them to be addressed.......it will complain itself all the way to its own demise."

What hard truths? we spend less than our comparable neighbors so get a slightly poorer system, highlighting that is not complaining its common sense so the statement is somewhat of a straw soldier.

"jmho of course"

 

Mine is not just opinion but is based on personal experience of working in the system backed up by some pretty unarguable  figures....

Edited November 21, 2019 by sandymere

[NEWKID 27,472]

16 hours ago, jukel123 said:

I came across  an expression the other day..."confirmation bias". People believe what they want to believe no matter what the evidence. I think Johnstone is a moral cesspit and Farage a spiv. Tommy Robinson is another professional agitator/journalist, who like Farage makes a very good living out of gullible people's fears. Lots of you guys think the opposite even though we are exposed to the same media outlets and information. Not much point in wasting time on here trying to persuade each other of our different viewpoints.

All I want to point out is that the NHS, sick pay, pensions, overtime and shift payments, decent council housing and the comprehensive education system ( which allows a little class mobility)  were all Labour Party initiatives. They were hard fought for by the unions. When the last Labour Party were in power they spent the same as France and Germany on health spending, about 12% per cent of GDP. Under the tories we have seen total spending drop to just over 8 per cent of GDP. How can we have a world class health system when we spend so little on it? The tories really are running down the NHS in order to claim that the only way forward is to privatise it.

Nobody in their right mind wants to destroy capitalism and adopt socialism/communism. We have seen where that leads. But we don't have to have this vicious, neanderthal capitalism with food banks, homeless people dying in tents, and virtually no social care for the elderly. The nordic countries do capitalism much better.

Over and out.

Very good post mate, 

I wouldve been a staunch labour voter, if labour were truly labour, as probably most on here I come from a council estate upbringing, my parents both worked and my old man has been self employed since he was 15, me and my brother are the same, never had a benefit in our lives of any sort and worked to secure our futures..true labour policies should protect and actively promote this type of person (I'd say the majority of the UK fall into this working class bracket).... but I honestly dont see this labour party representing people like me at all, infact they are pretty much the opposite to my way of thinking, and will probably have a negative impact on people who want to progress and own property, make a decent living through hard graft etc...but... I dont like the Tories either particularly...its a shit situation where whoever gets in no ones going to be overly happy anyway...

I do understand the staunch labour strongholds, the Thatcher years were too much to bear for these to ever change their vote, regardless of how shit labour is!! Lol...

 

[NEWKID 27,472]

16 hours ago, jukel123 said:

Yes but I hunt like a tory, I ignore the law when it suits me,especialy a bad law.

Hunting shouldn't be a consideration imo... no party will openly fight for any changes to hunting laws, the world has changed and the majority of the public (voters!!) Are plant eating Disney loving city types with no understanding of the countryside or our way of life.... it really is a case of keeping your head down and doing what you do.... I love hunting and fishing, been at it since I can remember one way or another, but to base a vote on a hunting view point is very naive imo!

[NEWKID 27,472]

15 hours ago, Nicepix said:

No, I'll hopefully get the UK pension I have contributed towards for almost 40 years. I might also get a very small French pension based on the few years I've been self employed over here though.

French pensions are less than UK ones and the French have to contribute to their health service. It isn't free like the NHS. I don't know of any other country that has free health care so perhaps it isn't a good idea.  It is certainly being abused by free loaders and it must be said, by NHS staff creating long waiting lists to boost their private work. Basically the NHS is now unfit for purpose and needs overhauling. 

You will find homeless people in the Nordic countries you so admire. And a much higher rate of suicide. You cannot lay all the blame on people sleeping rough and using food banks on the government. There are many other issues such as personal debt caused by personal bad decisions. Addictions of all kinds also cause many of these problems as does mental health issues caused by those addictions.

It isn't just as simple as the Tories cause all our problems. A lot of the current problems were caused by Labour and the unions on the 1970's.

 

 

There has been a multitude of social problems since the beginning of time, people are people... I to find it crazy when the government get the blame for every waster in the country when the problems are far too complex for any governing party to sort out

[NEWKID 27,472]

14 hours ago, dogmandont said:

I can never remember so many Tory voters being on here, but now it seems if you’re not a Tory or brexit party voter your a c**t, how have the torys became the voice of the man on the street?? one thing this whole brexit fcukup has hammered home is that every politician and party piss in the same pot and don’t give a toss about ordinary working class people. 

Bang on mate....

I'd say we are all labour voters at heart .... but not this f***ing labour party, no way!!!

[NEWKID 27,472]

1 hour ago, WILF said:

Genuine question:

Do you think it really is as simple as just chucking more money at the job or do you think it’s a multi faceted problem, money being only part of the equation ? 

Money being spent wisely doesn't seem to be a NHS strong point...

I'm not one for trolling Google and finding stats etc, just say what you see...I know Sandy works as a nurse, and I have nothing but the upmost respect for the majority of the NHS workforce ..but I've seen lots of genuine shit first hand, and it is a complete post code lottery....

I dont need Google to tell me different to what I can see, money alone wont fix it....answerability might?

Cutting the top earners who are creaming it might .... f**k me if you ran a f**k up organisation youd be sacked or go bust...these top bods get a pay rise and bonuses!! Lol

Edited November 21, 2019 by NEWKID

[Nicepix 5,650]

12 minutes ago, NEWKID said:

There has been a multitude of social problems since the beginning of time, people are people... I to find it crazy when the government get the blame for every waster in the country when the problems are far too complex for any governing party to sort out

I agree. But when you have a major governmental policy change that has a sudden impact on society then that government has to take the blame.

[Accip74 7,112]

I’m surrounded by yanks now, next door neighbours & then 2 doors down. I’ve actually become really good friends with this lad from Colorado, so I’m starting to get a better insight into living in the states, but trying to get your head round their healthcare system is fcuking mind boggling! They love it here for that reason alone & of course not having to worry about guns! 

If the NHS could somehow be restored then that’s great, but I just can’t see the realism of it..... leaning more towards some European systems could be the answer. It’s such a massive task I can just see it limping along for generations to come, just hope it doesn’t get any worse.

Edited November 21, 2019 by Accip74