Liverpool

[Astanley 11,565]

55 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Sorry if it seems like im digging you out mate im not you know the club as well as me....but this was always going to be the type of issue we would come up against by making the decision to be " a big club ".......chucking money at it is what big clubs do Wilf !.....i know i harp on about it but i never wanted to be a big club in a shiny big ground i was happy with being a shit club in a shit ground but people like me was ignored.....so ok we go along with it as we love the club but then as soon as our expectations become that of fans of big clubs we get told " slow down son we,re only West Ham you know "

Relegation would be disastrous for us......promises upheld we was looking at top 7 or 8 by now and we,re nowhere near that so if we,re a big club we have to make a big change and its obvious to anyone that the big name manager we brought in is f****n useless so bin him.....if we get nothing at Southampton on Saturday he,ll be gone.

I think maybe it's a generational thing ,I bet your younger supporters are gagging to be considered equal to spurs or arsenal and can't see any advantage in being a niche club with its own special identity ,I know older evertonians who are happy to be a Scousers only supported club ,they look down their collective (blue ) noses at Liverpool's wooly back support ,the younger ones can't wait to get new ground and be a " global brand " .....to a greater or lesser degree that type of scenario is being played out all over the place ...I don't know what's right or what's wrong but I do know some clubs will lose their way in the next decade and others will lose their soul .

[WILF 46,608]

1 hour ago, Astanley said:

I think maybe it's a generational thing ,I bet your younger supporters are gagging to be considered equal to spurs or arsenal and can't see any advantage in being a niche club with its own special identity ,I know older evertonians who are happy to be a Scousers only supported club ,they look down their collective (blue ) noses at Liverpool's wooly back support ,the younger ones can't wait to get new ground and be a " global brand " .....to a greater or lesser degree that type of scenario is being played out all over the place ...I don't know what's right or what's wrong but I do know some clubs will lose their way in the next decade and others will lose their soul .

I think it’s a choice mate, you are either like me and just like your club and ain’t particularly bothered what tier of football they are playing in

Or:

You want to follow a big successful club

 

I think the hard fact blokes like me and Gnasher are going to have to accept is that you can’t play in the top tier and not get on this “global brand” band wagon......at the top level, it’s that or die and more than that so many clubs & fans just want to be “in the prem”

Loads of fans want to spend their money going to a premier league game......me?, I’d be happy watching West Ham in the Istmian League South......happier in fact if all I’m watching is a team doing enough to survive and sell shirts.

But, imho, if you want to be “a brand” then you have to be doing something exciting enough to warrant people having a look at you......we ain’t, we are just going through the motions and we could have done that at home and at least we would have had that.

[Nicepix 5,650]

The problem with clubs like West Ham is that they have such a large, loyal support they attract the money men who want to take the revenue from that support without returning it to the club for the benefit of the very supporters who are funding it. Football clubs are seen as brands and no one is interested in the Bournemouth brand who only bring 11,000 through the turnstiles every home game. But West Ham are perfect for these investors. 50,000 loyal fan base and players don't expect mega salaries.

[gnasher16 30,025]

5 hours ago, WILF said:

I don’t think you are digging me out at all mate.

I think that it’s a hard one, it’s a quandary mate.

We all like being little old us, go’s without saying.

But on the flip side and as you well know professional sport is about progression.....you want to be moving forward.

So the complex thing was/is, do we want to be little old us or do we have to understand that we follow a professional sporting club  that has to move forward ? 
 

I suppose the point I’m making (badly!) is that we can’t have both, not in modern sport.

At the minute it’s the worst of both worlds, now I don’t particularly care which it ends up......But just hanging in a state of constant limbo is rubbish.

It we want to move on then let’s move on and do something exciting and fresh and different and go and have a real go.

If we don’t then let’s just go to a division where at least our fans can enjoy the odd game for their hard earned money.

Theres f**k all worse than planning for and being happy with  mediocrity in sport, It has to be do or die anytime you compete at anything.

 

Its really going to sound like im picking on you Wilf ....im not its just this is an argument i have all the time with people like yourself who wanted the move.....you wanted the move to be a big modern day club and compete with the best at big modern day football....well why on earth are you now willing to accept lower league football !!!

The bargaining tool used to get silly traditional ol fuckers like me on board was " competing with the biggest clubs in the world ".....i didnt particularly want to do that i was happy with what we had....but lads like you Wilf bought into all that flannel and was up for it.....well why aint you demanding it ?

Look,i understand why we moved...i dont like it but i accept it....but if we,re just going to trot along like we always did then what was the point,what was the sacrifice for ?....yes yes yes i get the finances aspect....but we,re just fans mate we dont care what happens in the board room.....i mean,what is this " something exciting,fresh and different " you are referring to ?....what does it look like ?........again,i really hope this aint coming across as impolite you strike me as one of my own so we can natter like this without throwing our burger at each other 

[THE STIFFMEISTER 15,695]

5 hours ago, Astanley said:

I think maybe it's a generational thing ,I bet your younger supporters are gagging to be considered equal to spurs or arsenal and can't see any advantage in being a niche club with its own special identity ,I know older evertonians who are happy to be a Scousers only supported club ,they look down their collective (blue ) noses at Liverpool's wooly back support ,the younger ones can't wait to get new ground and be a " global brand " .....to a greater or lesser degree that type of scenario is being played out all over the place ...I don't know what's right or what's wrong but I do know some clubs will lose their way in the next decade and others will lose their soul .

Nice to see men talking about football like well , men. 

Astanley , I see your points all the time with some of the lads at work. Interestingly I would say every scouse lad I work with is an evertonian . Most of them are actually sensible  who know the crack about being in Liverpool’s shadow. Most don’t care either to be honest. However I do find that “people’s club mentality” nonsense. 

West Ham , from looking in , seem to be happy if the football is right. No arguments here as that’s a good attitude to have.

Everton are happy floating in and around the top ten. That’s about right for me and I would argue those two and Newcastle are the three teams that the support identify with most. 

Now here is my point , Everton especially seem to have little support from outside their immediate area. 

To stay in or around that coveted next 5 positions , you need money , now weather that’s gained via bigger gates or a more shrewd merchandise plan is by the by . The crux is that you need to be up there and getting that serious tv money to compete and stay there. 

In a usual season you could say liverpool , city , United , Arsenal , Chelsea , spurs are the defined big six with the next four interchangeable. But you’d likely say West Ham ,  everton , Newcastle would be in or about there. 

Now it’s well and good doing this season after season etc al , but would you not be a little frustrated in never breaking top six ? Never doing a Leicester style run for glory ? Never saying we’ll come on let’s have a shot for one of the cups? 

Is it never worth trying to better your lot ? 

[WILF 46,608]

11 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Its really going to sound like im picking on you Wilf ....im not its just this is an argument i have all the time with people like yourself who wanted the move.....you wanted the move to be a big modern day club and compete with the best at big modern day football....well why on earth are you now willing to accept lower league football !!!

The bargaining tool used to get silly traditional ol fuckers like me on board was " competing with the biggest clubs in the world ".....i didnt particularly want to do that i was happy with what we had....but lads like you Wilf bought into all that flannel and was up for it.....well why aint you demanding it ?

Look,i understand why we moved...i dont like it but i accept it....but if we,re just going to trot along like we always did then what was the point,what was the sacrifice for ?....yes yes yes i get the finances aspect....but we,re just fans mate we dont care what happens in the board room.....i mean,what is this " something exciting,fresh and different " you are referring to ?....what does it look like ?........again,i really hope this aint coming across as impolite you strike me as one of my own so we can natter like this without throwing our burger at each other 

I’ll answer the last bit first mate with a question as it seems the best way to make my point, what is the point in getting shot of Pellergrini and replacing him with a Benitez or Howe or Moyes ?........these people are all the same animal. 
May as well save 10 mil and stay with MP.

Given that we ain’t going to get a Simeone or Lampard or Klopp or matey at Sheffield who’s name escapes me for a minute who have teams playing and performing in a way that other coaches don’t what’s the point ?

Bringing in some young, exciting lad with fresh ideas and methods who are doing exciting things already would make you go “oh, hello?”........

I was against the appointment of Pellergrini because I knew it was going to end up exactly like this.......it’s boring.

Moving was an opportunity to progress as all sporting clubs must, from that perspective it’s a no brainer.......but to do it then stop and show no ambition at all is criminal from a sporting perspective.

Staying at Upton Park has nothing to do with sport if you are honest mate, that’s always a heart over head argument......it’s an emotional argument that will never sit with an honest sporting answer in top flight modern football.

As a club we are a retirement home and have been for a long time, that’s shit that is.......that ethic needs smashed to bits and start again, i don’t want to win the champions league I just want something I can get behind as a football lad.

As for demanding more, well I am, but I’m demanding what I think is the way forward......thousands of fans don’t think like me, they would be happy as Larry with Benitez or Howe or some shit.

I want something long term, a rebuild and rediscover our culture as “the academy of football” , a foundation up ethic of youth development, a coach at the helm who has fresh ideas about how to play the modern high tempo exciting game, passing football, proper staff making sure athletes are conditioned properly and a team going out there all guns blazing having a go and playing aggressive high paced decent football.

Win some, loose some at least it’s value and would be respected.

We have everything in place, we just need to vision and bottle to do it.

But, all that has f**k all to do with West Ham really.......it’s just how I think about football and how it should be.

 

[NEWKID 27,088]

5 minutes ago, WILF said:

I’ll answer the last bit first mate with a question as it seems the best way to make my point, what is the point in getting shot of Pellergrini and replacing him with a Benitez or Howe or Moyes ?........these people are all the same animal. 
May as well save 10 mil and stay with MP.

Given that we ain’t going to get a Simeone or Lampard or Klopp or matey at Sheffield who’s name escapes me for a minute who have teams playing and performing in a way that other coaches don’t what’s the point ?

Bringing in some young, exciting lad with fresh ideas and methods who are doing exciting things already would make you go “oh, hello?”........

I was against the appointment of Pellergrini because I knew it was going to end up exactly like this.......it’s boring.

Moving was an opportunity to progress as all sporting clubs must, from that perspective it’s a no brainer.......but to do it then stop and show no ambition at all is criminal from a sporting perspective.

Staying at Upton Park has nothing to do with sport if you are honest mate, that’s always a heart over head argument......it’s an emotional argument that will never sit with an honest sporting answer in top flight modern football.

As a club we are a retirement home and have been for a long time, that’s shit that is.......that ethic needs smashed to bits and start again, i don’t want to win the champions league I just want something I can get behind as a football lad.

As for demanding more, well I am, but I’m demanding what I think is the way forward......thousands of fans don’t think like me, they would be happy as Larry with Benitez or Howe or some shit.

I want something long term, a rebuild and rediscover our culture as “the academy of football” , a foundation up ethic of youth development, a coach at the helm who has fresh ideas about how to play the modern high tempo exciting game, passing football, proper staff making sure athletes are conditioned properly and a team going out there all guns blazing having a go and playing aggressive high paced decent football.

Win some, loose some at least it’s value and would be respected.

We have everything in place, we just need to vision and bottle to do it.

But, all that has f**k all to do with West Ham really.......it’s just how I think about football and how it should be.

 

Got to agree with all of that mate..

And if I was you or Gnasher or any of the other thousands of supporters of the club I'd expect nothing else....

Just moving into a flashy new stadium wasn't the ticket to the big time (not that's what you or Gnasher particularly want), but what's the point in the upheaval if you dont progress on the park and as a club?

I never wanted Morhino at UTD, same thing really I knew what he would bring and we needed to change completely, start a fresh... the game is changing fast and these older set in their ways managers dont change quick enough imo...

Theres been some great players come through West Hams academy, Joe Cole, Rio Ferdinand, Michael Carrick (hands off!! Lol), obviously Frank Lampard... is it a case of bringing someone like these lads who have affiliation to the club and would bring some drive back to the team?

[dytkos 17,784]

It's a funny old game who would have expected "little" Rovers or Leicester to win the Prem? Or Wigan beating City in the FA Cup final?

That's what makes football the game it is (apart from the corrupt fuckers at FIFA etc)

Cheers, D.

[NEWKID 27,088]

5 minutes ago, dytkos said:

It's a funny old game who would have expected "little" Rovers or Leicester to win the Prem? Or Wigan beating City in the FA Cup final?

That's what makes football the game it is (apart from the corrupt fuckers at FIFA etc)

Cheers, D.

Leicester are a great side to watch this season mate...Rodgers always gets his teams playing good football

[Astanley 11,565]

13 minutes ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

Nice to see men talking about football like well , men. 

Astanley , I see your points all the time with some of the lads at work. Interestingly I would say every scouse lad I work with is an evertonian . Most of them are actually sensible  who know the crack about being in Liverpool’s shadow. Most don’t care either to be honest. However I do find that “people’s club mentality” nonsense. 

West Ham , from looking in , seem to be happy if the football is right. No arguments here as that’s a good attitude to have.

Everton are happy floating in and around the top ten. That’s about right for me and I would argue those two and Newcastle are the three teams that the support identify with most. 

Now here is my point , Everton especially seem to have little support from outside their immediate area. 

To stay in or around that coveted next 5 positions , you need money , now weather that’s gained via bigger gates or a more shrewd merchandise plan is by the by . The crux is that you need to be up there and getting that serious tv money to compete and stay there. 

In a usual season you could say liverpool , city , United , Arsenal , Chelsea , spurs are the defined big six with the next four interchangeable. But you’d likely say West Ham ,  everton , Newcastle would be in or about there. 

Now it’s well and good doing this season after season etc al , but would you not be a little frustrated in never breaking top six ? Never doing a Leicester style run for glory ? Never saying we’ll come on let’s have a shot for one of the cups? 

Is it never worth trying to better your lot ? 

Of course it is mate ,I'm not suggesting anyone should just settle , there are a list of clubs who should be aiming for the top four in my opinion ,but if and when a club gets success ,I'm romantic enough to think it should be by having a football vision and ethos ,by shrewd long term investment ,by slowly building an infrastructure and identity ,by being brave and bold , and daring to try ...not by business men proudly creating business models and brands ....

Leicester is a perfect example of the former ,a mid sized club ,not pretending to be anything they're not .

[WILF 46,608]

4 hours ago, Astanley said:

Of course it is mate ,I'm not suggesting anyone should just settle , there are a list of clubs who should be aiming for the top four in my opinion ,but if and when a club gets success ,I'm romantic enough to think it should be by having a football vision and ethos ,by shrewd long term investment ,by slowly building an infrastructure and identity ,by being brave and bold , and daring to try ...not by business men proudly creating business models and brands ....

Leicester is a perfect example of the former ,a mid sized club ,not pretending to be anything they're not .

Unfortunately mate, now days I think the brand and the football have to go hand in hand.......it takes a shit load of money to run even the smallest football club and that takes sales.

Its your 50/50 down the local and sponsorship/shirt sales etc etc at top level which these days means a brand and an image......it’s just how it is.

That however is and should be a totally different thing from the sporting mentality of the club.....they have f**k all to do with each other imho

The only reason it matters to the brand is that nobody wants to be associated with failure......the best and most lucrative sponsors naturally go towards the most exciting teams and the teams can demand more money for the privilege.

I totally agree about building and I think the crux is that the last few years have shown that playing great football isn’t just about money......anyone can do it with the right coach in place.

You can’t buy what Liverpool are doing or city or even Sheffield or Chelsea......that’s an ethic that is and that’s what’s makes just keep doing the same old boring shit with managers even more bitter ! 

 

Edited December 10, 2019 by WILF

[Astanley 11,565]

Your right mate ,..it's big business ,wether old farts like me like it or not ...but I can't help feeling that success should evolve ,it should be hard fought and difficult to get otherwise it's not worth having ,nowadays the craving for instant gratification a la man city and Chelsea gets up my nose ,it's in all walks of society ,from the athlete who juices up as a short cut to the young singers who let louis Walsh bum them on x factor ...it's just my own humble view ,,,,,,the sooner the bubble bursts and the money men tuck off the better I will like it .

[Nicepix 5,650]

Just look at this: 

https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-liverpool/transfers/verein/31

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liverpool-fc/transfers/verein/31/plus/0?saison_id=2018&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

https://www.transfermarkt.com/liverpool-fc/transfers/verein/31/plus/0?saison_id=2017&pos=&detailpos=&w_s=

In three years they have spent a net £120 million. Three years! And they are Champions of Europe and probably will be Champions of England.

That is how to do it.

[gnasher16 30,025]

22 hours ago, WILF said:

I’ll answer the last bit first mate with a question as it seems the best way to make my point, what is the point in getting shot of Pellergrini and replacing him with a Benitez or Howe or Moyes ?........these people are all the same animal. 
May as well save 10 mil and stay with MP.

 

Because you all wanted us to become a big club and thats what big clubs do.

 

22 hours ago, WILF said:

 

Staying at Upton Park has nothing to do with sport if you are honest mate, that’s always a heart over head argument......it’s an emotional argument that will never sit with an honest sporting answer in top flight modern football.

 

I disagree......yes we all loved Upton Park and didnt want to move for emotional reasons as well but purely from a football perspective we have lost our identity as a club.

 

22 hours ago, WILF said:

 

I want something long term, a rebuild and rediscover our culture as “the academy of football” , a foundation up ethic of youth development, a coach at the helm who has fresh ideas about how to play the modern high tempo exciting game, passing football, proper staff making sure athletes are conditioned properly and a team going out there all guns blazing having a go and playing aggressive high paced decent football.

Win some, loose some at least it’s value and would be respected.

We have everything in place, we just need to vision and bottle to do it.

But, all that has f**k all to do with West Ham really.......it’s just how I think about football and how it should be.

 

But we had all that.....we had probably the greatest most successful academy of football in the country.....we had a young vibrant manager with a do or die attitude playing fast attacking football....we had everything in place.....our last year at the old gaff was one of the most enjoyable seasons ive ever had as a West Ham travelling to places like Malta and Romania in Europe....it was our most successful season ever in the Premier League we finished with more points than ever before,we got to the quarter final of the Fa Cup ....even the under 21,s won the cup so everything was looking great........now look at us !

The harsh reality is mate we had the option to stick or twist and we f****d it.....and now chaps like you are sitting suggesting we start to build exactly what we already had...only in this shiny new stadium and as a " brand " instead of a football club with " customers " instead of fans.

[NEWKID 27,088]

44 minutes ago, gnasher16 said:

Because you all wanted us to become a big club and thats what big clubs do.

 

I disagree......yes we all loved Upton Park and didnt want to move for emotional reasons as well but purely from a football perspective we have lost our identity as a club.

 

But we had all that.....we had probably the greatest most successful academy of football in the country.....we had a young vibrant manager with a do or die attitude playing fast attacking football....we had everything in place.....our last year at the old gaff was one of the most enjoyable seasons ive ever had as a West Ham travelling to places like Malta and Romania in Europe....it was our most successful season ever in the Premier League we finished with more points than ever before,we got to the quarter final of the Fa Cup ....even the under 21,s won the cup so everything was looking great........now look at us !

The harsh reality is mate we had the option to stick or twist and we f****d it.....and now chaps like you are sitting suggesting we start to build exactly what we already had...only in this shiny new stadium and as a " brand " instead of a football club with " customers " instead of fans.

Surely the stadium in the long term can only been seen as a benefit to the club, the manager would be the same at Upton Park or the new place, and as you say he doesn't fit... surely a young vibrant coach is what you want now?

I dont think any of the old school West Ham fans will ever embrace the new stadium, but if the right bloke was in charge and the team was playing good football perhaps the pill would be easier to.swallow...