Some interesting hunting related science...

[Born Hunter 17,798]

9 minutes ago, JDHUNTING said:

There was absolutely f**k all evidence of it in that arricle

Oh okay.

[WILF 47,487]

12 hours ago, jukel123 said:

Interesting research, but there's a bit of a leap to say from the results of one study that ' the same is true in all mammals'. I don't think they have demonstrated that. I remember reading about 'the strange male' phenomenon in mice. Basically if a pregnant mouse is separated from her mate and introduced to a new mate , she will often abort/absorb her unborn offspring and then immediately become pregnant to her new mate. It's been demonstrated that mice exhibit that behaviour but other species do not. Not as far as I know at any rate.

However I know from reading Keith Erlandson's book on training spaniels that there exists, at least in his opinion, "prepotent" stud dogs. ( he really did know a thing or two about training spaniels) i.e. dogs which throw desirable pups to a good percentage of bitches. The same is  thought to be true in greyhounds. I don't know if there are academic studies to prove this though.

As for fish feeling pain, subjective I know, but I have always felt this to be true. A foul hooked salmon goes berserk , you really know it's foul hooked because it pulls like fury on the rod. A mouth hooked fish cannot produce so much strain on the rod because it is handicapped, in my view, by the sensitivity of its mouth. It's the same thing as controlling a nasty bull with pressure on a nose ring. A child can lead a bull by its  nose ring because the nose is so sensitive. 

I believe lower forms of life can feel pain. Maybe I'm guilty of anthropomorphism, but  an earthworm  obviously writhes in agony when it is exposed to  harsh sunlight or placed on a hook. To me it's not a great leap of cross species empathy....... it is obviously f****n painful for the critter!

Jmho But I have always believed that foul hooked fish have more power because you don’t have the pressure on the head to change the angle of movement.

A bit like a bit in horses.

Fish are most powerful in a forward direction, and any hooking in the flanks will still allow them to exert forward movement unhindered.

However, place pressure in the mouth and that forward movement only serves to increase the pressure and so with the application of pressure from rod and line, you can make the fish turn.

It turns because the pressure eases when you go with it rather than against it......that’s how a bit works as I’m sure you know.

Its the application of discomfort to invoke a certain response.

I dont however think discomfort is the same as pain, its like the difference in having a stiff back and a bad back......one is uncomfortable and makes you move in a certain unnatural way and the other will have you in tears where the pain just won’t let you function.

As far as genetics is concerned, the best source of information would be on 5* rated beef bullocks......there has been massive research into breeding the very best, very biggest animals they can that will produce similarly high quality offspring on a consistent basis.

Forget dogs, no money in it so no one cares.

[jukel123 8,565]

23 minutes ago, WILF said:

Jmho But I have always believed that foul hooked fish have more power because you don’t have the pressure on the head to change the angle of movement.

A bit like a bit in horses.

Fish are most powerful in a forward direction, and any hooking in the flanks will still allow them to exert forward movement unhindered.

However, place pressure in the mouth and that forward movement only serves to increase the pressure and so with the application of pressure from rod and line, you can make the fish turn.

It turns because the pressure eases when you go with it rather than against it......that’s how a bit works as I’m sure you know.

Its the application of discomfort to invoke a certain response.

I dont however think discomfort is the same as pain, its like the difference in having a stiff back and a bad back......one is uncomfortable and makes you move in a certain unnatural way and the other will have you in tears where the pain just won’t let you function.

As far as genetics is concerned, the best source of information would be on 5* rated beef bullocks......there has been massive research into breeding the very best, very biggest animals they can that will produce similarly high quality offspring on a consistent basis.

Forget dogs, no money in it so no one cares.

I think we are on the same page Wilf.

As far as Beef cattle go jmo but I've think they've gone too far with size. Some breeds are so big calving becomes a problem. Any bigger and the bull will have trouble rearing up to serve the cow. Double the size of the herd and half the size of the breed would be my unthought out suggestion.

[JDHUNTING 1,817]

13 hours ago, jukel123 said:

Interesting research, but there's a bit of a leap to say from the results of one study that ' the same is true in all mammals'. I don't think they have demonstrated that. I remember reading about 'the strange male' phenomenon in mice. Basically if a pregnant mouse is separated from her mate and introduced to a new mate , she will often abort/absorb her unborn offspring and then immediately become pregnant to her new mate. It's been demonstrated that mice exhibit that behaviour but other species do not. Not as far as I know at any rate.

However I know from reading Keith Erlandson's book on training spaniels that there exists, at least in his opinion, "prepotent" stud dogs. ( he really did know a thing or two about training spaniels) i.e. dogs which throw desirable pups to a good percentage of bitches. The same is  thought to be true in greyhounds. I don't know if there are academic studies to prove this though.

As for fish feeling pain, subjective I know, but I have always felt this to be true. A foul hooked salmon goes berserk , you really know it's foul hooked because it pulls like fury on the rod. A mouth hooked fish cannot produce so much strain on the rod because it is handicapped, in my view, by the sensitivity of its mouth. It's the same thing as controlling a nasty bull with pressure on a nose ring. A child can lead a bull by its  nose ring because the nose is so sensitive. 

I believe lower forms of life can feel pain. Maybe I'm guilty of anthropomorphism, but  an earthworm  obviously writhes in agony when it is exposed to  harsh sunlight or placed on a hook. To me it's not a great leap of cross species empathy....... it is obviously f****n painful for the critter!

Foul hooked fish fight harder because there head isn't being pulled back it's got nothing to do with pain

[WILF 47,487]

2 hours ago, jukel123 said:

I think we are on the same page Wilf.

As far as Beef cattle go jmo but I've think they've gone too far with size. Some breeds are so big calving becomes a problem. Any bigger and the bull will have trouble rearing up to serve the cow. Double the size of the herd and half the size of the breed would be my unthought out suggestion.

I am no authority on cattle mate but I’m sure they are doing it to get more yield from a single animal would be my best guess 

One mouth to feed, one TB test to pay for, one set of hoofs damaging the ground, one lot of methane emissions for the equivalent carcass weight of maybe two animals.

it will have all been thought through I’m sure.

I can’t speak about calving because I just don’t know

[dogmandont 9,879]

6 hours ago, jukel123 said:

I think we are on the same page Wilf.

As far as Beef cattle go jmo but I've think they've gone too far with size. Some breeds are so big calving becomes a problem. Any bigger and the bull will have trouble rearing up to serve the cow. Double the size of the herd and half the size of the breed would be my unthought out suggestion.

Greed becomes a problem.

[Moocher71 4,050]

On 26/09/2019 at 14:10, Born Hunter said:

A couple of things I've come across this week that have made me question what I thought I knew.

First off that the father contributes more to the offspring than the mother. That is, a study on mice showed that although mother and father contribute an equal proportion of nuclear DNA to their offspring, the fathers genes were seen to dominate significantly in the expression of those genes.

This has obvious potential implication on the breeding of working animals. Perhaps not so much in practice as in understanding.

 

Secondly, that fish do indeed experience pain, or at least suffering.

I remembered being told as a kid that fish cant feel pain and was a bit sceptical even then. A few years ago I quickly looked this up and got the usual "fish don't have the developed nervous system to feel pain". But I was sent this link last night off the back of the sort of nonsense discussions I get into with people. 

 

Every living thing feels pain