Why has Hancock no pups for sale?

[Phil Lloyd 10,738]

Just for Pastoral fans out there,..these are some words I penned from research, a few years ago...

 Obviously, only my opinion,...based solely on my own experience...

The Australian Cattle Dog 

The evolution of this unique, purpose-bred worker has been well documented, and although one can never be 100% certain of every fact, I believe that much of the historical information appears to be reasonably accurate. When the first pioneering settlers started to colonise Australia and to produce large herds of cattle that grazed on the vast unfenced properties and bushlands, they soon set about creating a unique breed of dog to assist them in mustering and moving semi-wild cattle. The principal requirement of this new type of dog was that it be strong, possess great stamina, and obviously be able to bite. Initially, the cattlemen had used an ancient style of dog that many had brought with them on that long and arduous journey from old England. This heavy-coated dog was known as the Smithfield.  This was a large, long-haired, droving cur, thought to be bred from the Old Bobtail, with an infusion from various other breeds. This hardy beast worked both sheep and cattle, and derived its famous name, from its association with the Smithfield Meat Markets of Victorian London. 

When used in Australia, these dogs were suitable for working the sheep, but handling wild cattle in a harsh environment was another matter. To control animals such as these a dog must work silently from the rear, and be forceful enough to move them. Such a dog must be able to sustain hard work for prolonged periods, in all kinds of weather conditions and over different types of terrain. These hairy beasts had been created to drive sheep and cattle from all over our country, heading towards the pastures of East Anglia for fattening, and then finally, onto London for slaughter. However, conditions were different in England to Australia, and they just couldn’t handle the blistering heat and rough terrain of the new continent. They were entirely adequate when used amidst the coastal areas, but when the settlers moved ever deeper into the harsh interior and established vast cattle ranches, it soon became evident that these dogs simply couldn’t stand up to conditions in the Outback. Then, around about 1830, a cattleman, named Timmins of New South Wales crossed these noisy and somewhat cumbersome huntaway droving dogs with the native Australian wild dog, the Dingo. This hybridisation produced some really cracking animals, known locally as Timmins Biters. These dogs worked silently in the manner of the Dingo and were the starting point in the next phase of the Australian Cattle Dog’s development. Unfortunately, these Red Bobtails were a wee bit too hard, and were branded as being inveterate killers and eaters, of cattle!  Obviously, that was not a big success. It is said that soon after; a landowner named Thomas Hall imported a brace of smooth-coated, blue merle collies from Scotland. And, although these canny dogs worked reasonably well enough, they still barked a fair bit. They also tried to head the stock. Both of these attributes are undesirable and can be dangerous when working semi-wild cattle. Thus, the next cross was back again to the Dingo. These silent workers moved quickly and crept about behind the animals in the manner of a wild predator, the resulting litter from that experiment became known as Hall’s Heelers. Clearly, during that time, many other stockmen throughout the area were working towards similar goals and also trying to produce a suitable worker. They were well aware that without good healthy cattle dogs at their disposal, their own daily tasks just could not be achieved. Many other breeds were used to improve and refine the Australian Cattle Dog. One of these was reputedly the Dalmatian. 

The result produced a dependable active worker, that was identical in type and build to the Dingo, only thicker set, and with peculiar markings found on no other dog in the world. The blue dogs had black patches around the eyes, with black ears and brown eyes, with a small white patch in the middle of the forehead. The body was dark blue, evenly speckled with a lighter blue. The red dogs had dark red markings instead of black, with an even, all-over red speckle. One should also bear in mind that the Dalmatian of that bygone era, was vastly different, from the contemporary show dog. This move was undertaken to hopefully instil in the dog, a tolerance towards horses. And we should perhaps remember that back in those days, most works with livestock was carried out on horseback. The well-known spotted dog was bred into this potent mix to also produce a natural protectiveness, towards both master and his property. This dominant trait is one that certainly lives on today. Unfortunately, by doing this, and using a breed that was mostly a non-worker, some of the working ability was lost. So, the next logical step was to include the blood of the fabulous Kelpie, Australia’s own sheep herding specialist. Further infusions of the real Bull Terrier blood was also used to increase courage, and what might best be termed as bottle.

However, one of the requirements of a cattle dog is to go in low, bite the steer’s heel and then, by quickly ducking, avoid the resulting kick, and get the hell out. This is directly opposed to the mindset of the bull-blooded animal, which would grip a portion of his quarry’s anatomy, and simply hang on. This dangerous action is most unwise with feral cattle, so the Bull blood was used, sparingly. The temperament and character of the real Australian Cattle Dog is one of a rough, sturdy, full of fun canine. However, they are noticeably suspicious of strangers and will show aggression towards anyone, or anything that they deem to be a genuine threat, against their master or his family. This intense loyalty has to be seen to be believed. They have a quicksilver mind that allows them to react instantly to situations, and to quickly learn the tasks required of them. Also, and perhaps more importantly, they are physically tough. They are also exceptionally long-lived. In fact, an ACD named Bluey is mentioned in The Guinness Book of Records. He was bought as a raw pup by a drover back in 1910, and it has been reliably documented that he worked the sheep and cattle for a further twenty years. Eventually, after reaching the ripe old age of twenty-nine, he ultimately decided to call it a day. With this in mind, I felt quietly confident, that any lurcher hybrid created from such a canine mix, would be a darn good bet for me, and at the very least, I would surely get my money’s worth

 

[shaaark 10,750]

33 minutes ago, Phil Lloyd said:

Just for Pastoral fans out there,..these are some words I penned from research, a few years ago...

 Obviously, only my opinion,...based solely on my own experience...

The Australian Cattle Dog 

The evolution of this unique, purpose-bred worker has been well documented, and although one can never be 100% certain of every fact, I believe that much of the historical information appears to be reasonably accurate. When the first pioneering settlers started to colonise Australia and to produce large herds of cattle that grazed on the vast unfenced properties and bushlands, they soon set about creating a unique breed of dog to assist them in mustering and moving semi-wild cattle. The principal requirement of this new type of dog was that it be strong, possess great stamina, and obviously be able to bite. Initially, the cattlemen had used an ancient style of dog that many had brought with them on that long and arduous journey from old England. This heavy-coated dog was known as the Smithfield.  This was a large, long-haired, droving cur, thought to be bred from the Old Bobtail, with an infusion from various other breeds. This hardy beast worked both sheep and cattle, and derived its famous name, from its association with the Smithfield Meat Markets of Victorian London. 

When used in Australia, these dogs were suitable for working the sheep, but handling wild cattle in a harsh environment was another matter. To control animals such as these a dog must work silently from the rear, and be forceful enough to move them. Such a dog must be able to sustain hard work for prolonged periods, in all kinds of weather conditions and over different types of terrain. These hairy beasts had been created to drive sheep and cattle from all over our country, heading towards the pastures of East Anglia for fattening, and then finally, onto London for slaughter. However, conditions were different in England to Australia, and they just couldn’t handle the blistering heat and rough terrain of the new continent. They were entirely adequate when used amidst the coastal areas, but when the settlers moved ever deeper into the harsh interior and established vast cattle ranches, it soon became evident that these dogs simply couldn’t stand up to conditions in the Outback. Then, around about 1830, a cattleman, named Timmins of New South Wales crossed these noisy and somewhat cumbersome huntaway droving dogs with the native Australian wild dog, the Dingo. This hybridisation produced some really cracking animals, known locally as Timmins Biters. These dogs worked silently in the manner of the Dingo and were the starting point in the next phase of the Australian Cattle Dog’s development. Unfortunately, these Red Bobtails were a wee bit too hard, and were branded as being inveterate killers and eaters, of cattle!  Obviously, that was not a big success. It is said that soon after; a landowner named Thomas Hall imported a brace of smooth-coated, blue merle collies from Scotland. And, although these canny dogs worked reasonably well enough, they still barked a fair bit. They also tried to head the stock. Both of these attributes are undesirable and can be dangerous when working semi-wild cattle. Thus, the next cross was back again to the Dingo. These silent workers moved quickly and crept about behind the animals in the manner of a wild predator, the resulting litter from that experiment became known as Hall’s Heelers. Clearly, during that time, many other stockmen throughout the area were working towards similar goals and also trying to produce a suitable worker. They were well aware that without good healthy cattle dogs at their disposal, their own daily tasks just could not be achieved. Many other breeds were used to improve and refine the Australian Cattle Dog. One of these was reputedly the Dalmatian. 

The result produced a dependable active worker, that was identical in type and build to the Dingo, only thicker set, and with peculiar markings found on no other dog in the world. The blue dogs had black patches around the eyes, with black ears and brown eyes, with a small white patch in the middle of the forehead. The body was dark blue, evenly speckled with a lighter blue. The red dogs had dark red markings instead of black, with an even, all-over red speckle. One should also bear in mind that the Dalmatian of that bygone era, was vastly different, from the contemporary show dog. This move was undertaken to hopefully instil in the dog, a tolerance towards horses. And we should perhaps remember that back in those days, most works with livestock was carried out on horseback. The well-known spotted dog was bred into this potent mix to also produce a natural protectiveness, towards both master and his property. This dominant trait is one that certainly lives on today. Unfortunately, by doing this, and using a breed that was mostly a non-worker, some of the working ability was lost. So, the next logical step was to include the blood of the fabulous Kelpie, Australia’s own sheep herding specialist. Further infusions of the real Bull Terrier blood was also used to increase courage, and what might best be termed as bottle.

However, one of the requirements of a cattle dog is to go in low, bite the steer’s heel and then, by quickly ducking, avoid the resulting kick, and get the hell out. This is directly opposed to the mindset of the bull-blooded animal, which would grip a portion of his quarry’s anatomy, and simply hang on. This dangerous action is most unwise with feral cattle, so the Bull blood was used, sparingly. The temperament and character of the real Australian Cattle Dog is one of a rough, sturdy, full of fun canine. However, they are noticeably suspicious of strangers and will show aggression towards anyone, or anything that they deem to be a genuine threat, against their master or his family. This intense loyalty has to be seen to be believed. They have a quicksilver mind that allows them to react instantly to situations, and to quickly learn the tasks required of them. Also, and perhaps more importantly, they are physically tough. They are also exceptionally long-lived. In fact, an ACD named Bluey is mentioned in The Guinness Book of Records. He was bought as a raw pup by a drover back in 1910, and it has been reliably documented that he worked the sheep and cattle for a further twenty years. Eventually, after reaching the ripe old age of twenty-nine, he ultimately decided to call it a day. With this in mind, I felt quietly confident, that any lurcher hybrid created from such a canine mix, would be a darn good bet for me, and at the very least, I would surely get my money’s worth

 

Why on earth was dalmation blood bred into these dogs phil, many dog breeds have a natural affinity with horses? I know the early dogs would've been a far cry from the modern dogs, but I personally can't see what they would bring to the type over different  tougher breeds that were just as good with horses. Similarly, I could say the same as to the 'supposed' dalmation blood in the english bull terrier, why?! 

Not a dig at you, or your research etc, it's just baffling why dalmation blood was used in the creation of those two breeds

Edited August 20, 2019 by shaaark

[two crows 3,342]

a couple of old pics

[forest of dean redneck 11,597]

45 minutes ago, shaaark said:

Why on earth was dalmation blood bred into these dogs phil, many dog breeds have a natural affinity with horses? I know the early dogs would've been a far cry from the modern dogs, but I personally can't see what they would bring to the type over different  tougher breeds that were just as good with horses. Similarly, I could say the same as to the 'supposed' dalmation blood in the english bull terrier, why?! 

Not a dig at you, or your research etc, it's just baffling why dalmation blood was used in the creation of those two breeds

Because the Dalmatian was the coach dog bred to run behind posh peoples coaches so assuming it was used for being good round horses as well as it’s stamina ? Not that collies needed much help .

[shaaark 10,750]

27 minutes ago, forest of dean redneck said:

Because the Dalmatian was the coach dog bred to run behind posh peoples coaches so assuming it was used for being good round horses as well as it’s stamina ? Not that collies needed much help .

I know that mate  but surely there would've been a better breed than dalmations?

[shaaark 10,750]

41 minutes ago, two crows said:

a couple of old pics

I like those lancashire heelers. There's a woman lives less than 100 yards from me with one, cracking little dog. A little too short legged  but a cracking little dog

[forest of dean redneck 11,597]

5 minutes ago, shaaark said:

I know that mate  but surely there would've been a better breed than dalmations?

Dunno but was there  lots of breeds to choose from back then ?

[darbo 4,774]

12 minutes ago, shaaark said:

I like those lancashire heelers. There's a woman lives less than 100 yards from me with one, cracking little dog. A little too short legged  but a cracking little dog

Used to be quite popular where i live the heelers used to see some about in the late 60s/70s and 80s not seen one for a long time now.

[gnipper 6,467]

13 minutes ago, shaaark said:

I like those lancashire heelers. There's a woman lives less than 100 yards from me with one, cracking little dog. A little too short legged  but a cracking little dog

There used to be loads round here when I was a kid but they're like hens teeth now. I think they're on the rare breeds list too. All the old dears had them or proper russels before westiesand Cavaliers took over.

 My mates nan had one that was the fastest thing I've seen move on little legs it was like a canine stoat. It also hunted like a goodun the first time we ever took it out in the woods. She was a nasty little shit round the house though especially when you went to leave. 

[poxon 5,731]

2 hours ago, Phil Lloyd said:

Just for Pastoral fans out there,..these are some words I penned from research, a few years ago...

 Obviously, only my opinion,...based solely on my own experience...

The Australian Cattle Dog 

The evolution of this unique, purpose-bred worker has been well documented, and although one can never be 100% certain of every fact, I believe that much of the historical information appears to be reasonably accurate. When the first pioneering settlers started to colonise Australia and to produce large herds of cattle that grazed on the vast unfenced properties and bushlands, they soon set about creating a unique breed of dog to assist them in mustering and moving semi-wild cattle. The principal requirement of this new type of dog was that it be strong, possess great stamina, and obviously be able to bite. Initially, the cattlemen had used an ancient style of dog that many had brought with them on that long and arduous journey from old England. This heavy-coated dog was known as the Smithfield.  This was a large, long-haired, droving cur, thought to be bred from the Old Bobtail, with an infusion from various other breeds. This hardy beast worked both sheep and cattle, and derived its famous name, from its association with the Smithfield Meat Markets of Victorian London. 

When used in Australia, these dogs were suitable for working the sheep, but handling wild cattle in a harsh environment was another matter. To control animals such as these a dog must work silently from the rear, and be forceful enough to move them. Such a dog must be able to sustain hard work for prolonged periods, in all kinds of weather conditions and over different types of terrain. These hairy beasts had been created to drive sheep and cattle from all over our country, heading towards the pastures of East Anglia for fattening, and then finally, onto London for slaughter. However, conditions were different in England to Australia, and they just couldn’t handle the blistering heat and rough terrain of the new continent. They were entirely adequate when used amidst the coastal areas, but when the settlers moved ever deeper into the harsh interior and established vast cattle ranches, it soon became evident that these dogs simply couldn’t stand up to conditions in the Outback. Then, around about 1830, a cattleman, named Timmins of New South Wales crossed these noisy and somewhat cumbersome huntaway droving dogs with the native Australian wild dog, the Dingo. This hybridisation produced some really cracking animals, known locally as Timmins Biters. These dogs worked silently in the manner of the Dingo and were the starting point in the next phase of the Australian Cattle Dog’s development. Unfortunately, these Red Bobtails were a wee bit too hard, and were branded as being inveterate killers and eaters, of cattle!  Obviously, that was not a big success. It is said that soon after; a landowner named Thomas Hall imported a brace of smooth-coated, blue merle collies from Scotland. And, although these canny dogs worked reasonably well enough, they still barked a fair bit. They also tried to head the stock. Both of these attributes are undesirable and can be dangerous when working semi-wild cattle. Thus, the next cross was back again to the Dingo. These silent workers moved quickly and crept about behind the animals in the manner of a wild predator, the resulting litter from that experiment became known as Hall’s Heelers. Clearly, during that time, many other stockmen throughout the area were working towards similar goals and also trying to produce a suitable worker. They were well aware that without good healthy cattle dogs at their disposal, their own daily tasks just could not be achieved. Many other breeds were used to improve and refine the Australian Cattle Dog. One of these was reputedly the Dalmatian. 

The result produced a dependable active worker, that was identical in type and build to the Dingo, only thicker set, and with peculiar markings found on no other dog in the world. The blue dogs had black patches around the eyes, with black ears and brown eyes, with a small white patch in the middle of the forehead. The body was dark blue, evenly speckled with a lighter blue. The red dogs had dark red markings instead of black, with an even, all-over red speckle. One should also bear in mind that the Dalmatian of that bygone era, was vastly different, from the contemporary show dog. This move was undertaken to hopefully instil in the dog, a tolerance towards horses. And we should perhaps remember that back in those days, most works with livestock was carried out on horseback. The well-known spotted dog was bred into this potent mix to also produce a natural protectiveness, towards both master and his property. This dominant trait is one that certainly lives on today. Unfortunately, by doing this, and using a breed that was mostly a non-worker, some of the working ability was lost. So, the next logical step was to include the blood of the fabulous Kelpie, Australia’s own sheep herding specialist. Further infusions of the real Bull Terrier blood was also used to increase courage, and what might best be termed as bottle.

However, one of the requirements of a cattle dog is to go in low, bite the steer’s heel and then, by quickly ducking, avoid the resulting kick, and get the hell out. This is directly opposed to the mindset of the bull-blooded animal, which would grip a portion of his quarry’s anatomy, and simply hang on. This dangerous action is most unwise with feral cattle, so the Bull blood was used, sparingly. The temperament and character of the real Australian Cattle Dog is one of a rough, sturdy, full of fun canine. However, they are noticeably suspicious of strangers and will show aggression towards anyone, or anything that they deem to be a genuine threat, against their master or his family. This intense loyalty has to be seen to be believed. They have a quicksilver mind that allows them to react instantly to situations, and to quickly learn the tasks required of them. Also, and perhaps more importantly, they are physically tough. They are also exceptionally long-lived. In fact, an ACD named Bluey is mentioned in The Guinness Book of Records. He was bought as a raw pup by a drover back in 1910, and it has been reliably documented that he worked the sheep and cattle for a further twenty years. Eventually, after reaching the ripe old age of twenty-nine, he ultimately decided to call it a day. With this in mind, I felt quietly confident, that any lurcher hybrid created from such a canine mix, would be a darn good bet for me, and at the very least, I would surely get my money’s worth

 

Good read that Phil

[shaaark 10,750]

9 minutes ago, gnipper said:

There used to be loads round here when I was a kid but they're like hens teeth now. I think they're on the rare breeds list too. All the old dears had them or proper russels before westiesand Cavaliers took over.

 My mates nan had one that was the fastest thing I've seen move on little legs it was like a canine stoat. It also hunted like a goodun the first time we ever took it out in the woods. She was a nasty little shit round the house though especially when you went to leave. 

Lol yeah, I'd think some of the earlier types would've been a cracking little vermin dog

[two crows 3,342]

[MH1 1,873]

20 minutes ago, two crows said:

What book is that?

[Aussie Whip 4,097]

7 hours ago, shaaark said:

Wasn't there some mastiff blood in the original kelpie bitch?

I've never heard this but the black barb people are mentioning,at least the ones I've seen, have a heavier build and broader head than most kelpies and look like they have bull type blood in them.

[Aussie Whip 4,097]

7 hours ago, Phil Lloyd said:

You are spot on there, Aussie Whip

I've used, all sorts of lurchers, for all sorts of quarry

However, back in the late 80s,...I went full-time, on the rabbit catching job.

I found that an amalgam, of running dog and herding dog, seemed to fit in nicely, with the daily workload

I can understand why you used this type for that,the old guys dog would practically bounce off the boulders in the areas we hunted chasing rabbits,very tough lurcher with few injuries and very quick reactions.