Old Photo's

[Apache... 2,588]

4 hours ago, milliken said:

some good info on here its been interesting reading

Don't believe everything you read, I was told.

[Bosun11 537]

22 hours ago, Glyn..... said:

Brain got nothing directly from Breay, , he told me he only ever met Breay once while stood on a bridge on a otter hunt where only a hello was exchanged , he used Davey , Kipper  at stud , gotta  bitch named Biddy off Westmoorland and used Rusty for stud when Rusty went to Westmoorland after Mr Breays death 

Sounds right Glyn, I stand corrected.

I knew Brian had met Breay, I've been present on a couple of his talk nights years ago. Though i thought he went up to meet him and Brian's terrier history did change from talk to talk....

Maybe its Park i'm getting confused with?

[THE STIFFMEISTER 15,659]

On 03/06/2019 at 11:44, rob284 said:

Some difference in the head shape of those bedlingtons to today’s type, the dogs in the picture are well put together, near border like

I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in  up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol  and Southampton if I remember rightly  ) industrial places  for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow. 

The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there. 

Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it 

[Apache... 2,588]

I went to the odd talk night with nuttal years back myself and then chatting to him at his place the odd story would change, but hey we can't remember everything all the time haha even I've been reminded how some of my dogs were bred years ago by other people and dogs I bred that I'd forgot about.

[rob284 1,682]

53 minutes ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in  up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol  and Southampton if I remember rightly  ) industrial places  for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow. 

The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there. 

Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it 

The Irish, border, lakey, beddy. They all probably decent from some cross bred type used in both the north and Ireland and they changed over time when people bred for purpose or show. I wouldn’t say no dog originated from one place, just like the patterdale, as there is always more than one person breeding a type at the same time. But your right, Whitehaven was a big port at one time and it would have been a place where plenty travelled through bringing and taking dogs with them. 

[p3d 879]

2 hours ago, THE STIFFMEISTER said:

I reckon there’s nothing more certain that the Irish and tinkers arriving at Stranraer , working there way across the border highways to the north east of England and the west coast of cumbria. ( remember in  up until the 1800s Whitehaven was a huge port for England , only biggered by Liverpool, Bristol  and Southampton if I remember rightly  ) industrial places  for employment via foot , caravan with family’s , dogs etc in tow. 

The entire set of northern terriers , the border, the Dandie dinmont, the bedlington , the Lakeland and ergo, the patterdale will be the descendants of the glens , Irish and Wheaton’s brought over, localised and infused into the small dogs already there. 

Just my opinion but looking at some of those pics , that just reinforces it 

They may have been crossed a long time a ago but the Northern terrier goes back further than any breed that the Irish developed.

The Wheaten, Kerry and Glen are the same dog, just separated for coat colour and a dwarf gene in the Glens. Even early photographs show a dog that was too big to go to ground. The names are made up, there was never any terrier bred in the Glen of Imaal.

The Irish terrier we can see in early photographs and documents was a very small dog, around 6lb to 12 lb. Yorkshire terrier size. If really game then a handy digging dog. The Show people bred in a Welsh terrier to get the shape they wanted and the size increased. The dogs were 28lbs in a matter of 20-30 years. Useless as a digging dog. 

As in Southern England the only real working Irish terrier is a small white Jack Russel type. Several very old paintings show this type, long before Rev Russell started hunting.. Probably bred and worked for Fox hunting by the Irish landed gentry just as in England. Those terriers were probably drafted around as often as Hounds were between these wealthy men. Over and back the Irish sea with hunting bloodstock.

If you look at Dobsons rough looking tykes, Prick ears, scrappy coats, they may have been this old Irish - Yorkshire terrier style. Not comparing his dogs to the shite show pets today but the original type.

The Bedlington was too big, The first Borders look exactly like the first Irish, Welsh,and old Black and Tan type. That is the nearest we can get to a root stock as far as I can see. JMO

 

[Lenmcharristar 9,721]

Some good reading here lads fair play

[Barrie 1,325]

On ‎05‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 20:47, All-terrain said:

Visited my mate today he has alsorts Of old pics, prints,paintings etc,loads of books aswell, took a few pics of some of them next time I’m there I’ll get some more, pics took off me phone so not the best, atb At 

 

That old Bucks Otter Hounds print is one of my absolute favourite otter hunting prints. They were originally produced as a fund raiser for the B.O.H. and if my memory serves me right were at that time were being sold by the supporters club for the princely sum of £6 (I should be so lucky now). I have one hanging on the wall right now and never tire of admiring it.... and another one stored away in a tube to be passed on at some point.

A.T. thank you for sharing and my very best wishes to the gentleman in question. Long may he enjoy his memories, they will ALWAYS be very special times no matter what lesser beings may decree !!!!   

Edited June 10, 2019 by Barrie

[EDDIE B 3,159]

On 01/06/2019 at 20:35, p3d said:

Same litter would be split into Kerry Blue, Wheaton and Irish, the B&T could pass as Irish back then. The RED coat came later.

Irish Terrier 1910

Kerry Blue/ Wheaton were trialled up to the 60's. and some later but the working numbers were not being produced.

The Staffs became the dog of choice. (Love the way the staff in the centre is waiting his chance to cling that Kerry Blue.)

[Bosun11 537]

[Rabbit Hunter 6,613]

Beautys them Bosun

[Mixedgrill 704]

2 hours ago, Bosun11 said:

I like

[Apache... 2,588]

Class pics bosun, the best ones yet!!

[strongbow 149]

11 hours ago, Barrie said:

That old Bucks Otter Hounds print is one of my absolute favourite otter hunting prints. They were originally produced as a fund raiser for the B.O.H. and if my memory serves me right were at that time were being sold by the supporters club for the princely sum of £6 (I should be so lucky now). I have one hanging on the wall right now and never tire of admiring it.... and another one stored away in a tube to be passed on at some point.

A.T. thank you for sharing and my very best wishes to the gentleman in question. Long may he enjoy his memories, they will ALWAYS be very special times no matter what lesser beings may decree !!!!   

Barry I’ve seen that other print of the border county hanging on wall before in someone else’s house and along with a index print next to it with everyone’s name and naming every hound even the terrier if my mind recalls correctly. The man across the river is named as well. Quite a interesting thing because there’s a few in the picture I know. Would I be right in saying your good self appears on it Mr.Wade.??

[Barrie 1,325]

22 minutes ago, strongbow said:

Barry I’ve seen that other print of the border county hanging on wall before in someone else’s house and along with a index print next to it with everyone’s name and naming every hound even the terrier if my mind recalls correctly. The man across the river is named as well. Quite a interesting thing because there’s a few in the picture I know. Would I be right in saying your good self appears on it Mr.Wade.??

Hi Strongbow

You're quite correct about that larger print, it does have an accompanying index print which names every single person, hound and terrier. It's a "proper job" as they say. However, it's the Eastern Counties Otter Hounds, rather than the Border Counties and no I'm not on there I'm afraid.

Around that time, a number of the packs had prints produced as a way of raising funds and they were quickly snatched up. Below is the Border Counties version, I was lucky enough to be there that day (although not in the picture) and just out of interest it relates to the same day the photograph of Bert Gripton, with his terrier Thatch under his arm and an otter pad in his hand, was taken. 

Kindest Regards - Barrie