Whippet cross Deerhound

[sandymere 8,263]

28 minutes ago, two crows said:

none at all, I have just been researching a saluki that sired my first coursing lurcher 1969 I can trace the sire to that dog back to both Egypt 1895 and Syria 1897, and the saluki's used in the coursing dogs of today all go back the same way I can find the same dogs in all the saluki studs used through out the development of the modern coursing dogs, and all the lines have show bred stuff in them, but I believe the saluki is unique in this respect, every thing else seems to have been screwed up by the show fraternity.

The show type tends to stray from true working types in pretty much every breed with time, even with breeds that proclaim the adherence to the working ideal. The  show greyhound is an excellent example and  alas show whippets are staring to show exaggeration of form that will reduce their working ability over the next few generations. Over the last few years even my favorite,  the Galgo,  has developed a  show brigade and there is now a variance between the show and coursing lines with the exaggeration starting to show. Modern pure bred Deerhounds in the UK are show dogs, even those that work are bred from show stock so there must be questions as to their use in lurcher breeding. I don't know a lot about show salukis in the UK but if it hasn't already happened the schism in type it will be just a matter of time.  Thankfully for many owners the physical excellence of the true working sight hounds, be it a racing grey or a coursing saluki etc can overcome a lot of faults when bred with lesser stock , still producing offspring that can put a little graft in but that ability is in spite of the cross rather than because of it.

[shaaark 10,836]

1 hour ago, two crows said:

none at all, I have just been researching a saluki that sired my first coursing lurcher 1969 I can trace the sire to that dog back to both Egypt 1895 and Syria 1897, and the saluki's used in the coursing dogs of today all go back the same way I can find the same dogs in all the saluki studs used through out the development of the modern coursing dogs, and all the lines have show bred stuff in them, but I believe the saluki is unique in this respect, every thing else seems to have been screwed up by the show fraternity.

Thanks for that, and that's partly my point. Yes, I get that finding a 'good' deerhound bitch could be a little difficult, but like I said yesterday, I don't think putting a tidy sized whippet dog, for example, the sire to my lads whippet bitch is 22 3/4" tts, kc and alot of oakbark breeding, and has worked day and night lamping, ferreting etc, to a deerhound bitch of under 30" tts, of which there are plenty, would be too difficult to do. There must still be some deerhounds that are/can still be worked in this country?

[sandymere 8,263]

i'd put the dog over a DH X grey and look for a rough coated pup.

[shaaark 10,836]

1 hour ago, sandymere said:

The show type tends to stray from true working types in pretty much every breed with time, even with breeds that proclaim the adherence to the working ideal. The  show greyhound is an excellent example and  alas show whippets are staring to show exaggeration of form that will reduce their working ability over the next few generations. Over the last few years even my favorite,  the Galgo,  has developed a  show brigade and there is now a variance between the show and coursing lines with the exaggeration starting to show. Modern pure bred Deerhounds in the UK are show dogs, even those that work are bred from show stock so there must be questions as to their use in lurcher breeding. I don't know a lot about show salukis in the UK but if it hasn't already happened the schism in type it will be just a matter of time.  Thankfully for many owners the physical excellence of the true working sight hounds, be it a racing grey or a coursing saluki etc can overcome a lot of faults when bred with lesser stock , still producing offspring that can put a little graft in but that ability is in spite of the cross rather than because of it.

From the bits I've read, there is already quite a bit of divergence from the original salukis from their c o o, to the ones in this country and the usa. 

Most show dogs differing a fair bit from original working types

[two crows 3,342]

39 minutes ago, shaaark said:

Thanks for that, and that's partly my point. Yes, I get that finding a 'good' deerhound bitch could be a little difficult, but like I said yesterday, I don't think putting a tidy sized whippet dog, for example, the sire to my lads whippet bitch is 22 3/4" tts, kc and alot of oakbark breeding, and has worked day and night lamping, ferreting etc, to a deerhound bitch of under 30" tts, of which there are plenty, would be too difficult to do. There must still be some deerhounds that are/can still be worked in this country?

if that whippet stud is a good working dog I would use that over a lurcher, rather than a greyhound all day long

[Gilbey 1,441]

5 minutes ago, shaaark said:

From the bits I've read, there is already quite a bit of divergence from the original salukis from their c o o, to the ones in this country and the usa. 

Most show dogs differing a fair bit from original working types

yup, the early ones were show/coursing, now their show show show, apart from the imports and the inbred workers etc.

the Doxhope deer x greys still get talked about and he's said the sires were nothing special in his writing, which goes along with what your saying

[shaaark 10,836]

2 hours ago, two crows said:

none at all, I have just been researching a saluki that sired my first coursing lurcher 1969 I can trace the sire to that dog back to both Egypt 1895 and Syria 1897, and the saluki's used in the coursing dogs of today all go back the same way I can find the same dogs in all the saluki studs used through out the development of the modern coursing dogs, and all the lines have show bred stuff in them, but I believe the saluki is unique in this respect, every thing else seems to have been screwed up by the show fraternity.

 

1 hour ago, sandymere said:

The show type tends to stray from true working types in pretty much every breed with time, even with breeds that proclaim the adherence to the working ideal. The  show greyhound is an excellent example and  alas show whippets are staring to show exaggeration of form that will reduce their working ability over the next few generations. Over the last few years even my favorite,  the Galgo,  has developed a  show brigade and there is now a variance between the show and coursing lines with the exaggeration starting to show. Modern pure bred Deerhounds in the UK are show dogs, even those that work are bred from show stock so there must be questions as to their use in lurcher breeding. I don't know a lot about show salukis in the UK but if it hasn't already happened the schism in type it will be just a matter of time.  Thankfully for many owners the physical excellence of the true working sight hounds, be it a racing grey or a coursing saluki etc can overcome a lot of faults when bred with lesser stock , still producing offspring that can put a little graft in but that ability is in spite of the cross rather than because of it.

There was an extremely good post on here last year I think, about salukis. Can't remember the name of it now, but it was extremely informative about salukis  the different types within the breed, what to look for, sight, phsical type etc. Very long post, but excellent. I know you two fellas read it because a few of us commented on it. Think the authors of the article were american

[Gilbey 1,441]

5 minutes ago, shaaark said:

 

There was an extremely good post on here last year I think, about salukis. Can't remember the name of it now, but it was extremely informative about salukis  the different types within the breed, what to look for, sight, phsical type etc. Very long post, but excellent. I know you two fellas read it because a few of us commented on it. Think the authors of the article were american

probably "the functional saluki" by Dan Belkin

[two crows 3,342]

11 minutes ago, shaaark said:

From the bits I've read, there is already quite a bit of divergence from the original salukis from their c o o, to the ones in this country and the usa. 

Most show dogs differing a fair bit from original working types

some of the dogs from the early 1900's look like three quarter breds, good strong looking dogs, the only thing witch seems to be exaggerated is the amount of feather. of course the saluki was a vital ingredient in what we have today, what ever happens now wont change that.

[shaaark 10,836]

6 hours ago, two crows said:

years ago dogs had to do a job, you would use the best dog available to you whatever that was, it would also have bean seen working, like you said no room for sentiment, the deerhounds years ago you speak of were more likely lurchers any way, like here when people talk about deerhound crosses being good dogs years ago, folk think of first crosses, when in reality the good ones would be deerhound lurchers, as apposed to longdogs.

That would be the same as coursing dogs these days then t c? Practically everyone calls them saluki/greys, when in reality, there's collie, beddy,, whippet, norfolk lurcher etc in them, making them saluki lurchers. I know there's been a fair number of pure salukis bred back into some of these lines, but they aint saluki/greys. Not looking for an argument, just stating what I've read, and seen written on here

[shaaark 10,836]

2 hours ago, sandymere said:

The show type tends to stray from true working types in pretty much every breed with time, even with breeds that proclaim the adherence to the working ideal. The  show greyhound is an excellent example and  alas show whippets are staring to show exaggeration of form that will reduce their working ability over the next few generations. Over the last few years even my favorite,  the Galgo,  has developed a  show brigade and there is now a variance between the show and coursing lines with the exaggeration starting to show. Modern pure bred Deerhounds in the UK are show dogs, even those that work are bred from show stock so there must be questions as to their use in lurcher breeding. I don't know a lot about show salukis in the UK but if it hasn't already happened the schism in type it will be just a matter of time.  Thankfully for many owners the physical excellence of the true working sight hounds, be it a racing grey or a coursing saluki etc can overcome a lot of faults when bred with lesser stock , still producing offspring that can put a little graft in but that ability is in spite of the cross rather than because of it.

Been watching quite a few more of these galgos coursing in spain. Some of those dogs are incredible. And some of the land they run over . Well impressed

[sandymere 8,263]

A graph based on genetic studies ancestry of modern dogs by genetic groupings. Interesting to note the greyhound is separate from other sighthounds, thought to be a more recent development whereas those  from around the Mediterranean/asia etc are an older line. This would suggest the greyhound was developed from a predominately herding baseline perhaps when the hare and or rabbit was introduced into Britain.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3559126/

http://sloughi.tripod.com/preserving/geneticswesterbredsighthoundsgermany.html

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by sandymere

[Gilbey 1,441]

the brown hare is native according to some folk on here........

[two crows 3,342]

58 minutes ago, shaaark said:

That would be the same as coursing dogs these days then t c? Practically everyone calls them saluki/greys, when in reality, there's collie, beddy,, whippet, norfolk lurcher etc in them, making them saluki lurchers. I know there's been a fair number of pure salukis bred back into some of these lines, but they aint saluki/greys. Not looking for an argument, just stating what I've read, and seen written on here

your spot on, they all get wrongly labelled saluki greys, I have had and bred some very good saluki greys, but the modern  coursing dog as I have said before is a saluki lurcher, when I got my first one as a young boy it was a saluki put over a beddy lurcher, and others did the same up and down, lads had decent lurchers, and just bred saluki in, then the best of these put to each other, until you get what we have, an out cross to saluki now and then is all you need, but I would be care full only to use a good one, for what they are bred for they wont be bettered as a type. but we must remember they were bred for one purpose.

[Ted Newgent 4,896]

i was asked just last week if i was prepared to cross my deer/wolfhound with this lads huskie.

he dog sled races and thought it might make a difference to his pack.

 

i declined the opportunity